6 ms·

Property rights are the answer. And not property rights the way water rights sometimes works, where a group of people all have the right to take all they can.

Property rights are the answer. And not property rights the way water rights sometimes works, where a group of people all have the right to take all they can. If the same people owned an aquifer but all had to pay for what they used, the water would be more properly priced. With water, as with fish, people often pay the cost of taking the resource and not a price that reflects the value of the resource. The value is actually more like the future cost of replacing the resource. Once your aquifer is empty, you must ship water in. Or desalinate. That's more like the real cost. With a species of fish, the replacement is incalculable. But one thing is clear. The price should increase rapidly as it becomes scarcer, preserving the incentive to keep the population viable. That can't happen if people just pay the cost of going out there and getting the fish. The price has to reflect the value of the fish too. If the right too harvest a population were a piece of property that could be bought and sold, the incentive to preserve the population would be stronger. You might even see technologies that avoid taken pregnant females and that count how many males there are so you have enough of those too.

pydry 6y ago
This is almost word for word the economic advice given by Larry Summers to Russia when Yeltsin (an American puppet) was figuring out what to do with Russian industries after the collapse of the Soviet Union. He told them to put it in private hands. He told them it didn't really matter whose hands it ended up in. He told them that provided it was in private hands with property rights well respected then the economy would thrive throughout the 90s. It ultimately ended up mostly in the hands of the oligarchs or abandoned while the rest of Russia starved. A lot of it got clawed back in the early 2000s and has been better managed since.
- stretchwithme 6y ago
  What article or speech or book are you referring to? I'd love to see how closely I channeled it, especially given my low opinion of that guy. I would add that property rights don't work as well when rule of law is weak. That doesn't mean they're a bad thing.
rufusroflpunch 6y ago
This. It’s a shame a magazine called “Economist” eschews the simple answer any economist would provide and instead advocates a complicated regulatory scheme like this.
- phaemon 6y ago
  The problem with that simple answer, is that fish move. If you don't catch them on your patch, you don't get to reap the benefits next year - the person with the patch north of yours gets to catch them next month.
  - rufusroflpunch 6y ago
    This is kind of like saying that, because farmers must occasionally let their field lie fallow, government must ban farming in some areas. Fish migratory patterns would naturally be priced into the fishing rights market.
    - phaemon 6y ago
      No, it's not. If a farmer leaves a field fallow they will benefit from it later because the field does not move. If you do not fish an area you will not benefit from it later because the fish do move. This is not a hypothetical; it's the reality fishermen have been dealing with for decades.
- croissants 6y ago
  The article explains why bans may be preferable to market-based solutions in this case. The gist is that it's easier to enforce a ban ("nobody is allowed to fish here until 2022! get out!") than any kind of pricing mechanism ("let's see, yesterday a random Chinese trawler came in and picked up, I guess, 4 tons of mackerel, so add that to the week's total and..."), and many of the relevant countries with depleted fisheries may not even have the regulatory capacity for the latter.
  - stretchwithme 6y ago
AshWolfy 6y ago
Counterpoint, intensive farming companies, with full ownership of the land, are ruining the topsoil of their land because the cost of farming sustainably is greater than the cost of acquiring new land
- stretchwithme 6y ago
  Which companies?
pnutjam 6y ago
Property rights don't work that way, unfortunately we can't price everything correctly because too many special interests are out there and people are easily fooled.

pydry 6y ago

This is almost word for word the economic advice given by Larry Summers to Russia when Yeltsin (an American puppet) was figuring out what to do with Russian industries after the collapse of the Soviet Union. He told them to put it in private hands. He told them it didn't really matter whose hands it ended up in. He told them that provided it was in private hands with property rights well respected then the economy would thrive throughout the 90s. It ultimately ended up mostly in the hands of the oligarchs or abandoned while the rest of Russia starved. A lot of it got clawed back in the early 2000s and has been better managed since.

stretchwithme 6y ago
What article or speech or book are you referring to? I'd love to see how closely I channeled it, especially given my low opinion of that guy. I would add that property rights don't work as well when rule of law is weak. That doesn't mean they're a bad thing.

rufusroflpunch 6y ago

This. It’s a shame a magazine called “Economist” eschews the simple answer any economist would provide and instead advocates a complicated regulatory scheme like this.

phaemon 6y ago
The problem with that simple answer, is that fish move. If you don't catch them on your patch, you don't get to reap the benefits next year - the person with the patch north of yours gets to catch them next month.
- rufusroflpunch 6y ago
  This is kind of like saying that, because farmers must occasionally let their field lie fallow, government must ban farming in some areas. Fish migratory patterns would naturally be priced into the fishing rights market.
  - phaemon 6y ago
    No, it's not. If a farmer leaves a field fallow they will benefit from it later because the field does not move. If you do not fish an area you will not benefit from it later because the fish do move. This is not a hypothetical; it's the reality fishermen have been dealing with for decades.
croissants 6y ago
The article explains why bans may be preferable to market-based solutions in this case. The gist is that it's easier to enforce a ban ("nobody is allowed to fish here until 2022! get out!") than any kind of pricing mechanism ("let's see, yesterday a random Chinese trawler came in and picked up, I guess, 4 tons of mackerel, so add that to the week's total and..."), and many of the relevant countries with depleted fisheries may not even have the regulatory capacity for the latter.
- stretchwithme 6y ago

AshWolfy 6y ago

Counterpoint, intensive farming companies, with full ownership of the land, are ruining the topsoil of their land because the cost of farming sustainably is greater than the cost of acquiring new land

stretchwithme 6y ago
Which companies?

pnutjam 6y ago

Property rights don't work that way, unfortunately we can't price everything correctly because too many special interests are out there and people are easily fooled.