4 ms·

There's a pretty clear reason for passing legislation to force Apple to allow third party stores, and I think it has been explained well in the parent comments:

by strken 6y ago

There's a pretty clear reason for passing legislation to force Apple to allow third party stores, and I think it has been explained well in the parent comments: some people believe users should control their devices. There are also pretty clear reasons for not doing so: other people believe Apple should control its devices. Politicians can legislate things. They already get to dictate how parties interact. I'm not sure how rights come into it, since they wouldn't be breaching any of your rights that I can think of.

zepto 6y ago
This is not an accurate representation of reality. Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago. All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do. Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, the argument cannot be about that. The people who argue that Apple should be forced to allow third party stores are only interested in the potential commercial gain they could make if they had access to Apple’s customers. They just want access to the customers so they can make money out of them. That is all this argument is about and all it has ever been about.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Of course users can control their device. Control doesn't mean assembly programming, control means to decide how they want to use it. I am not a car mechanic, I won't approach my car with a tool. Still I control my car as I can drive it to any workshop of my choice to have changes done. The car manufacturer has no say in this.
  - zepto 6y ago
    You can take your phone to anyone you like and have them make whatever changes you pay for. That is currently your right. It’s not clear what your complaint is.
    - _ph_ 6y ago
      Whom can I pay for to install something like Termux on my iPad? Apple not only forbids third-parties from offering such a service via the App Store, they also do their best to prevent this by any other path. That they are not 100% successful (jailbreaks) doesn't mean the situation is anyhow comparable to cars, where there is a wide ecosystem of 3rd party support for customization.
      - zepto 6y ago
        There are engineers who can do it for you if you are willing to pay. If you want easier customization buy Android. That is one of the selling points. Not all cars are engineered to be cheap to customize easily.
        _ph_ 6y ago
        You are detracting from the point. The point isn't that there is exactly one alternative, which is somewhat more customizable, the point is that Apple makes it willfully difficult to customize. This is not equal to cars.
        zepto 6y ago
        Apple doesn’t make it willfully different to customize. They make it willfully difficult to compromise it. It’s not equal to cars, because cars aren’t software and are not vulnerable to the many attacks that phones are. It seems like you want a more customizable device and are happy to accept the risks. Why buy an iPhone if it isn’t what you want?
        _ph_ 6y ago
        No they make it willfully difficult to customize. Installing applications is not compromising. And stop with strawmen like "Why buy an iPhone if it isn’t what you want? ". The discussion is about the freedom any buyer of any product should have. Fundamental customer rights.
  - zepto 6y ago
    My car displays speed in kph and has no option to display it in mph. How do I get that changed?
- nvrspyx 6y ago
  > The people who argue that Apple should be forced to allow third party stores are only interested in the potential commercial gain they could make if they had access to Apple’s customers. > They just want access to the customers so they can make money out of them. > That is all this argument is about and all it has ever been about. And this is not an accurate representation of reality. I have zero professional or financial connection to software development, but I still want Apple to allow third-party stores or at least third-party installs so I can do the things on my phone that I want to that Apple says no to. I want to play games on an emulator, I want to stream video games (e.g. xCloud) without downloading individual wrapper apps for each game or attempting to play through Safari, I want to use proper browser engines other than Safari and hopefully have proper uncrippled PWA support, I want to run interpreters/compilers/shells like iSH, I want to play adult games, etc. What I find even more abhorrent is the notion that because you bought an Apple product that you belong solely to Apple when it comes to anything in regards to that device. I'm a consumer/customer period, not Apple's customer. I bought the phone because of the hardware quality and that should be the end of the transaction.
  - zepto 6y ago
    You can do anything you want to with your own phone. The law allows you to hack on it in any way you like. What you are saying is that you don’t have the capacity to make the phone do what you want. You want Apple to do that work, and you want the government to force them to do it for you. That is not the same thing. You didn’t have to buy it if it didn’t do what you wanted. Are you claiming you didn’t know it was locked down before you bought it?
    - nvrspyx 6y ago
      No. The work has already been done for all those things I want, I just can't utilize any of it. I don't want Apple to do anything other than allow me to install apps outside of the App Store and without the bullshit 7-day restriction on sideloading. I know what I bought and iPhones are still the best option for my use case despite the limitations. Just because I decided to purchase an iPhone from the limited options (Android or nothing), doesn't mean I have to be head-over-heels in love with it and I can still be unhappy with certain aspects of it. I can still desire improvements to what I consider the best available option. You can continue to try to do mental gymnastics and twist the contexts here, but you're bending over backwards to let Apple bend you over. What's even more frustratingly absurd is that you think that you can "hack" your iPhone without going through Apple. The only way to do that is purchasing a Mac for around $1k and to get over the previously mentioned bullshit 7-day restriction is a $99/yr developer account.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Right, but when you buy an iPhone Apple says that they are the only people you can trust. The argument is that this isn't necessarily the best scenario.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Many people think it is best for them. If you don’t think it is best, nobody is forcing you to trust them.

by strken 6y ago

zepto 6y ago

This is not an accurate representation of reality. Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago. All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do. Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, the argument cannot be about that. The people who argue that Apple should be forced to allow third party stores are only interested in the potential commercial gain they could make if they had access to Apple’s customers. They just want access to the customers so they can make money out of them. That is all this argument is about and all it has ever been about.

_ph_ 6y ago
Of course users can control their device. Control doesn't mean assembly programming, control means to decide how they want to use it. I am not a car mechanic, I won't approach my car with a tool. Still I control my car as I can drive it to any workshop of my choice to have changes done. The car manufacturer has no say in this.
- zepto 6y ago
  You can take your phone to anyone you like and have them make whatever changes you pay for. That is currently your right. It’s not clear what your complaint is.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Whom can I pay for to install something like Termux on my iPad? Apple not only forbids third-parties from offering such a service via the App Store, they also do their best to prevent this by any other path. That they are not 100% successful (jailbreaks) doesn't mean the situation is anyhow comparable to cars, where there is a wide ecosystem of 3rd party support for customization.
    - zepto 6y ago
      There are engineers who can do it for you if you are willing to pay. If you want easier customization buy Android. That is one of the selling points. Not all cars are engineered to be cheap to customize easily.
      - _ph_ 6y ago
        You are detracting from the point. The point isn't that there is exactly one alternative, which is somewhat more customizable, the point is that Apple makes it willfully difficult to customize. This is not equal to cars.
        zepto 6y ago
        Apple doesn’t make it willfully different to customize. They make it willfully difficult to compromise it. It’s not equal to cars, because cars aren’t software and are not vulnerable to the many attacks that phones are. It seems like you want a more customizable device and are happy to accept the risks. Why buy an iPhone if it isn’t what you want?
        _ph_ 6y ago
        No they make it willfully difficult to customize. Installing applications is not compromising. And stop with strawmen like "Why buy an iPhone if it isn’t what you want? ". The discussion is about the freedom any buyer of any product should have. Fundamental customer rights.
- zepto 6y ago
  My car displays speed in kph and has no option to display it in mph. How do I get that changed?
nvrspyx 6y ago
> The people who argue that Apple should be forced to allow third party stores are only interested in the potential commercial gain they could make if they had access to Apple’s customers. > They just want access to the customers so they can make money out of them. > That is all this argument is about and all it has ever been about. And this is not an accurate representation of reality. I have zero professional or financial connection to software development, but I still want Apple to allow third-party stores or at least third-party installs so I can do the things on my phone that I want to that Apple says no to. I want to play games on an emulator, I want to stream video games (e.g. xCloud) without downloading individual wrapper apps for each game or attempting to play through Safari, I want to use proper browser engines other than Safari and hopefully have proper uncrippled PWA support, I want to run interpreters/compilers/shells like iSH, I want to play adult games, etc. What I find even more abhorrent is the notion that because you bought an Apple product that you belong solely to Apple when it comes to anything in regards to that device. I'm a consumer/customer period, not Apple's customer. I bought the phone because of the hardware quality and that should be the end of the transaction.
- zepto 6y ago
  You can do anything you want to with your own phone. The law allows you to hack on it in any way you like. What you are saying is that you don’t have the capacity to make the phone do what you want. You want Apple to do that work, and you want the government to force them to do it for you. That is not the same thing. You didn’t have to buy it if it didn’t do what you wanted. Are you claiming you didn’t know it was locked down before you bought it?
  - nvrspyx 6y ago
    No. The work has already been done for all those things I want, I just can't utilize any of it. I don't want Apple to do anything other than allow me to install apps outside of the App Store and without the bullshit 7-day restriction on sideloading. I know what I bought and iPhones are still the best option for my use case despite the limitations. Just because I decided to purchase an iPhone from the limited options (Android or nothing), doesn't mean I have to be head-over-heels in love with it and I can still be unhappy with certain aspects of it. I can still desire improvements to what I consider the best available option. You can continue to try to do mental gymnastics and twist the contexts here, but you're bending over backwards to let Apple bend you over. What's even more frustratingly absurd is that you think that you can "hack" your iPhone without going through Apple. The only way to do that is purchasing a Mac for around $1k and to get over the previously mentioned bullshit 7-day restriction is a $99/yr developer account.
saagarjha 6y ago
> All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Right, but when you buy an iPhone Apple says that they are the only people you can trust. The argument is that this isn't necessarily the best scenario.
- zepto 6y ago
  Many people think it is best for them. If you don’t think it is best, nobody is forcing you to trust them.