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I don't get the obsession with how EVs will change the world. Cars represent a fairly small percentage of our energy usage, and EVs take significantly more ener

by ppf 6y ago

I don't get the obsession with how EVs will change the world. Cars represent a fairly small percentage of our energy usage, and EVs take significantly more energy to manufacture. Do you also have electrically-powered domestic heating and hot water? It's the same argument.

aeternum 6y ago
EVs could help because they give each home a huge battery. Ability to store energy on a large scale could be the answer to making solar and wind viable as primary energy sources. Many homes use gas-powered heating and hot water because it used to be cheaper. It's inefficient for power plants to burn gas, turn it into electricity + waste heat vs. homes just turning the gas directly into heat. That likely won't be the case for long since renewable electricity sources should drive down the cost of electricity.
- jerkstate 6y ago
  Are there any bidirectional chargers that make use of the battery to power the home yet?
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    In Japan - yes. Even hydrogen cars have a Chademo port hidden somewhere. First Tesla's had that built in, but found no one were using it.
- ppf 6y ago
  It's a nice, techie-sounding idea, but there isn't enough lithium in the world to make that many batteries. It also has the downside that most people with cars expect to use them daily, and not find they have been depleted while in use as grid storage. There is also the related issue of excessive charge cycle wear on those batteries. The energy harvested from a wind turbine (or solar panel) is quite small compared to the energy required to make that generator, when compared to the equivalent figures for a fossil fuel plant. I just don't buy the idea that renewables are cheaper sources - just looking at the energy returned on energy invested, power produced will be more expensive. That's ok, because us humans should learn how to use drastically less energy in our daily lives, but it doesn't help to pretend that it will make energy cheaper.
  - aeternum 6y ago
    Not sure where you are getting your figures but this does not seem to match reality. USGS predicts we have 13.5 million tons of lithium reserves which would support production of 100 million EVs per year for over 17 years. And that's just on the earth. Asteroid mining, recycling, or alternate battery tech could easily extend that timeline. https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough... Also take a look at recent solar costs vs. fossil fuels. They've already crossed with fossil fuels at 5-17 cents and solar at 3-6 cents per kwh. We should of course not waste energy, but requiring humanity to use less energy is not the answer, it's never happened in human history and we do not need it to happen.
    - ppf 6y ago
      USGS themselves say the US has 700,000 tons of proven lithium reserves, and 7 million tons of potential lithium resources https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-lithium.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-lithium.pd... The article you linked also doesn't do your point any favours - some quotes: >"Can lithium batteries scale up? According to this quick and purely speculative math, the short answer is, with current reserves, not just no, but hell no." >"Even this little sketch of the issue highlights the obvious conclusion: we need to do our best to get away from single passenger cars -- even EVs -- and rely more on smart city design, walking, biking, carpooling, trains, shuttles, etc." As for the relative prices of electricity sources - I'll just say it again, the energy returned on energy invested for renewable sources mean that an all-renewable grid would have a higher cost per unit of electricity. The only reason it's cheap now is because most of the manufacturing is done by countries that are happy to burn oil, coal, and whatever else they can find, to do so.
      - aeternum 6y ago
        I guess only time will tell. I believe battery improvements will now only accelerate given the amount of research in that area. Even if lithium doesn't scale, we will find alternatives for electrical energy storage and will become increasingly efficient at renewable manufacturing.
srtjstjsj 6y ago
ICE is horrible pollution because (1) it burns fuel happens in people's faces instead of in remote industrial areas, and (2) it's not efficient to burn fuel in tiny little mini-generator in every car. As a bonus, (3) the fuel largely comes from failing nation-states, which is geopolitically dangerous.
- ppf 6y ago
  I'm glad you can see that one of the major benefits of EVs is you export the horrible pollution and mess of manufacturing and disposing to "remote industrial areas", in this case, mostly China / Asia. The US is a net oil exporter. Also, take a look at where cobalt and other necessary rare earths come from. An EV takes significantly more energy to manufacture than an ICE car. Including this energy cost, over its lifetime, the efficiency gains are marginal.
r00fus 6y ago
Cars are the most sticky part of the petroleum economy. To remove that anchor would allow this industry to collapse/deflate like it should.

by ppf 6y ago

aeternum 6y ago

EVs could help because they give each home a huge battery. Ability to store energy on a large scale could be the answer to making solar and wind viable as primary energy sources. Many homes use gas-powered heating and hot water because it used to be cheaper. It's inefficient for power plants to burn gas, turn it into electricity + waste heat vs. homes just turning the gas directly into heat. That likely won't be the case for long since renewable electricity sources should drive down the cost of electricity.

jerkstate 6y ago
Are there any bidirectional chargers that make use of the battery to power the home yet?
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  In Japan - yes. Even hydrogen cars have a Chademo port hidden somewhere. First Tesla's had that built in, but found no one were using it.
ppf 6y ago
It's a nice, techie-sounding idea, but there isn't enough lithium in the world to make that many batteries. It also has the downside that most people with cars expect to use them daily, and not find they have been depleted while in use as grid storage. There is also the related issue of excessive charge cycle wear on those batteries. The energy harvested from a wind turbine (or solar panel) is quite small compared to the energy required to make that generator, when compared to the equivalent figures for a fossil fuel plant. I just don't buy the idea that renewables are cheaper sources - just looking at the energy returned on energy invested, power produced will be more expensive. That's ok, because us humans should learn how to use drastically less energy in our daily lives, but it doesn't help to pretend that it will make energy cheaper.
- aeternum 6y ago
  Not sure where you are getting your figures but this does not seem to match reality. USGS predicts we have 13.5 million tons of lithium reserves which would support production of 100 million EVs per year for over 17 years. And that's just on the earth. Asteroid mining, recycling, or alternate battery tech could easily extend that timeline. https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough... Also take a look at recent solar costs vs. fossil fuels. They've already crossed with fossil fuels at 5-17 cents and solar at 3-6 cents per kwh. We should of course not waste energy, but requiring humanity to use less energy is not the answer, it's never happened in human history and we do not need it to happen.
  - ppf 6y ago
    USGS themselves say the US has 700,000 tons of proven lithium reserves, and 7 million tons of potential lithium resources https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-lithium.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-lithium.pd... The article you linked also doesn't do your point any favours - some quotes: >"Can lithium batteries scale up? According to this quick and purely speculative math, the short answer is, with current reserves, not just no, but hell no." >"Even this little sketch of the issue highlights the obvious conclusion: we need to do our best to get away from single passenger cars -- even EVs -- and rely more on smart city design, walking, biking, carpooling, trains, shuttles, etc." As for the relative prices of electricity sources - I'll just say it again, the energy returned on energy invested for renewable sources mean that an all-renewable grid would have a higher cost per unit of electricity. The only reason it's cheap now is because most of the manufacturing is done by countries that are happy to burn oil, coal, and whatever else they can find, to do so.
    - aeternum 6y ago
      I guess only time will tell. I believe battery improvements will now only accelerate given the amount of research in that area. Even if lithium doesn't scale, we will find alternatives for electrical energy storage and will become increasingly efficient at renewable manufacturing.

srtjstjsj 6y ago

ICE is horrible pollution because (1) it burns fuel happens in people's faces instead of in remote industrial areas, and (2) it's not efficient to burn fuel in tiny little mini-generator in every car. As a bonus, (3) the fuel largely comes from failing nation-states, which is geopolitically dangerous.

ppf 6y ago
I'm glad you can see that one of the major benefits of EVs is you export the horrible pollution and mess of manufacturing and disposing to "remote industrial areas", in this case, mostly China / Asia. The US is a net oil exporter. Also, take a look at where cobalt and other necessary rare earths come from. An EV takes significantly more energy to manufacture than an ICE car. Including this energy cost, over its lifetime, the efficiency gains are marginal.

r00fus 6y ago

Cars are the most sticky part of the petroleum economy. To remove that anchor would allow this industry to collapse/deflate like it should.