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> What is wrong with openly standing by your choices? People with money will buy votes if you make it possible for them to know how people voted. We have histo

> What is wrong with openly standing by your choices? People with money will buy votes if you make it possible for them to know how people voted. We have historical examples in US elections pre-1885 and in Congress post-Watergate.

hutzlibu 6y ago
Well, I would let them sell their votes. If enough people of a society do not care about their vote, so it has a significant impact, than it is probably not a very stable society in the first place.
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  Probably a good thing you don't get to make policy then. Not everyone is able to get enough of an education to appreciate what you have. Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote" So good democratic leaders make rules to protect the people from themself? Well, I know that one. I simply disagree. I rather think powerful people make rules to let them stay in power. An obscure vote system can help with that. Imagine suddenly a change to open-vote: would Trump really have won, if he just would have tried to buy votes? I doubt that.
    - arrosenberg 6y ago
      If there was an open vote, and Trump was able to both bribe and intimidate voters, yes I absolutely believe he both would have done it, and it would have had the desired impact. All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        "All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion" Would you have voted for him, if offered money? No? Well, why do you think then, the average joe wants to sell out in meaningful numbers?
        arrosenberg 6y ago
        No, but if some white nationalists showed up at my door and threatened me, I'd at least have to consider it. Plenty of historical evidence for that happening in this country. Meanwhile, my vote is completely irrelevant. There are plenty of people who didn't vote, and you only need to pay/suppress a couple thousand in AZ, NV, and GA to flip the election. History says that buying and threatening voters is effective and can move elections. Seeing as there isn't much of an upside to public votes, why would we risk it on the naïve notion that the average joe would think that far ahead when there is cash or a gun on the table?
        hutzlibu 6y ago
        If some white nationalist, could hold the whole nation at hostage, then shame on the nation for not being able to resist them. I mean, I believe there are professionals out there, whose job it is to make people safe. Or is the fear, that those people tend to be white nationalist, too? Well, in that case, there are other problems ... But as far as I know, many people dare to show open support of one party or the other and the newspapers are not full of people being beaten up because of it?
        arrosenberg 6y ago
        I'm not sure what your point is? There were armed Trump rallies, a Biden bus got run off the road, and the Attorney General was threatening State-sanctioned violence against his political opponents. I can't convince you not to be naïve about the world, but I'm also not going to apologize for supporting laws that reinforce Democratic norms. I have no interest in living in a dictatorship, even if a loud minority believes that is the right thing.

hutzlibu 6y ago

Well, I would let them sell their votes. If enough people of a society do not care about their vote, so it has a significant impact, than it is probably not a very stable society in the first place.

arrosenberg 6y ago
Probably a good thing you don't get to make policy then. Not everyone is able to get enough of an education to appreciate what you have. Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote" So good democratic leaders make rules to protect the people from themself? Well, I know that one. I simply disagree. I rather think powerful people make rules to let them stay in power. An obscure vote system can help with that. Imagine suddenly a change to open-vote: would Trump really have won, if he just would have tried to buy votes? I doubt that.
  - arrosenberg 6y ago
    If there was an open vote, and Trump was able to both bribe and intimidate voters, yes I absolutely believe he both would have done it, and it would have had the desired impact. All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion" Would you have voted for him, if offered money? No? Well, why do you think then, the average joe wants to sell out in meaningful numbers?
      - arrosenberg 6y ago
        No, but if some white nationalists showed up at my door and threatened me, I'd at least have to consider it. Plenty of historical evidence for that happening in this country. Meanwhile, my vote is completely irrelevant. There are plenty of people who didn't vote, and you only need to pay/suppress a couple thousand in AZ, NV, and GA to flip the election. History says that buying and threatening voters is effective and can move elections. Seeing as there isn't much of an upside to public votes, why would we risk it on the naïve notion that the average joe would think that far ahead when there is cash or a gun on the table?
        hutzlibu 6y ago
        If some white nationalist, could hold the whole nation at hostage, then shame on the nation for not being able to resist them. I mean, I believe there are professionals out there, whose job it is to make people safe. Or is the fear, that those people tend to be white nationalist, too? Well, in that case, there are other problems ... But as far as I know, many people dare to show open support of one party or the other and the newspapers are not full of people being beaten up because of it?
        arrosenberg 6y ago
        I'm not sure what your point is? There were armed Trump rallies, a Biden bus got run off the road, and the Attorney General was threatening State-sanctioned violence against his political opponents. I can't convince you not to be naïve about the world, but I'm also not going to apologize for supporting laws that reinforce Democratic norms. I have no interest in living in a dictatorship, even if a loud minority believes that is the right thing.