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"You can't anonymize (remove) voter data and also validate that data" It probably is a very unpopular opinion, but what about thinking again about an open vote

"You can't anonymize (remove) voter data and also validate that data" It probably is a very unpopular opinion, but what about thinking again about an open vote? What is wrong with openly standing by your choices? The fear, that there are too many bullies around who would bully people to change their vote? Well, if bullies do this, they also do other things, so we need to protect the vulnerable of them anyway. The way I understand it, the secret vote comes from a time where henchmen of the local warlord/prince/ were much more common and secret vote is a defence against organized bullying to votechange. But are we( as in people of western states) still living in such times?

arrosenberg 6y ago
> What is wrong with openly standing by your choices? People with money will buy votes if you make it possible for them to know how people voted. We have historical examples in US elections pre-1885 and in Congress post-Watergate.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Well, I would let them sell their votes. If enough people of a society do not care about their vote, so it has a significant impact, than it is probably not a very stable society in the first place.
  - arrosenberg 6y ago
    Probably a good thing you don't get to make policy then. Not everyone is able to get enough of an education to appreciate what you have. Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote" So good democratic leaders make rules to protect the people from themself? Well, I know that one. I simply disagree. I rather think powerful people make rules to let them stay in power. An obscure vote system can help with that. Imagine suddenly a change to open-vote: would Trump really have won, if he just would have tried to buy votes? I doubt that.
      - arrosenberg 6y ago
        If there was an open vote, and Trump was able to both bribe and intimidate voters, yes I absolutely believe he both would have done it, and it would have had the desired impact. All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion.
        hutzlibu 6y ago
        "All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion" Would you have voted for him, if offered money? No? Well, why do you think then, the average joe wants to sell out in meaningful numbers?
        arrosenberg 6y ago
        No, but if some white nationalists showed up at my door and threatened me, I'd at least have to consider it. Plenty of historical evidence for that happening in this country. Meanwhile, my vote is completely irrelevant. There are plenty of people who didn't vote, and you only need to pay/suppress a couple thousand in AZ, NV, and GA to flip the election. History says that buying and threatening voters is effective and can move elections. Seeing as there isn't much of an upside to public votes, why would we risk it on the naïve notion that the average joe would think that far ahead when there is cash or a gun on the table?
        hutzlibu 6y ago
        If some white nationalist, could hold the whole nation at hostage, then shame on the nation for not being able to resist them. I mean, I believe there are professionals out there, whose job it is to make people safe. Or is the fear, that those people tend to be white nationalist, too? Well, in that case, there are other problems ... But as far as I know, many people dare to show open support of one party or the other and the newspapers are not full of people being beaten up because of it?
        arrosenberg 6y ago
oh_sigh 6y ago
I'd rather not be ridden out on a rail from my tech company by people finding out I voted for "cheeto hitler".
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  That is a problem today, I agree. People have to hide their true opinions, to be able to work with other people who might have a contrary opintion. Suddenly changing that, would create conflicts. But after the initial conflicts would be solved, it could work?
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    This world sounds like East Germany in the '70s, where everyone was so afraid to speak their true opinion for fear of being informed on that it appears everyone agrees when in fact they don't.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      Well, since coming from there, I know east germany. (even though was born later). But this is not a good example, because in east germany there were in theory democratic, secret votes. They were just meaningless, as the voting system and everything else was in control of a totalitarian party. So you think, the US is like this? People are mostly afraid to speak of their true opinion? Sad state of the land of the free, then.

arrosenberg 6y ago

> What is wrong with openly standing by your choices? People with money will buy votes if you make it possible for them to know how people voted. We have historical examples in US elections pre-1885 and in Congress post-Watergate.

hutzlibu 6y ago
Well, I would let them sell their votes. If enough people of a society do not care about their vote, so it has a significant impact, than it is probably not a very stable society in the first place.
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  Probably a good thing you don't get to make policy then. Not everyone is able to get enough of an education to appreciate what you have. Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "Good democratic leaders make rules that account for that and preserve the vote" So good democratic leaders make rules to protect the people from themself? Well, I know that one. I simply disagree. I rather think powerful people make rules to let them stay in power. An obscure vote system can help with that. Imagine suddenly a change to open-vote: would Trump really have won, if he just would have tried to buy votes? I doubt that.
    - arrosenberg 6y ago
      If there was an open vote, and Trump was able to both bribe and intimidate voters, yes I absolutely believe he both would have done it, and it would have had the desired impact. All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        "All of the evidence in the world supports that assertion" Would you have voted for him, if offered money? No? Well, why do you think then, the average joe wants to sell out in meaningful numbers?
        arrosenberg 6y ago
        No, but if some white nationalists showed up at my door and threatened me, I'd at least have to consider it. Plenty of historical evidence for that happening in this country. Meanwhile, my vote is completely irrelevant. There are plenty of people who didn't vote, and you only need to pay/suppress a couple thousand in AZ, NV, and GA to flip the election. History says that buying and threatening voters is effective and can move elections. Seeing as there isn't much of an upside to public votes, why would we risk it on the naïve notion that the average joe would think that far ahead when there is cash or a gun on the table?
        hutzlibu 6y ago
        If some white nationalist, could hold the whole nation at hostage, then shame on the nation for not being able to resist them. I mean, I believe there are professionals out there, whose job it is to make people safe. Or is the fear, that those people tend to be white nationalist, too? Well, in that case, there are other problems ... But as far as I know, many people dare to show open support of one party or the other and the newspapers are not full of people being beaten up because of it?
        arrosenberg 6y ago

oh_sigh 6y ago

I'd rather not be ridden out on a rail from my tech company by people finding out I voted for "cheeto hitler".

hutzlibu 6y ago
That is a problem today, I agree. People have to hide their true opinions, to be able to work with other people who might have a contrary opintion. Suddenly changing that, would create conflicts. But after the initial conflicts would be solved, it could work?
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  This world sounds like East Germany in the '70s, where everyone was so afraid to speak their true opinion for fear of being informed on that it appears everyone agrees when in fact they don't.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Well, since coming from there, I know east germany. (even though was born later). But this is not a good example, because in east germany there were in theory democratic, secret votes. They were just meaningless, as the voting system and everything else was in control of a totalitarian party. So you think, the US is like this? People are mostly afraid to speak of their true opinion? Sad state of the land of the free, then.