8 ms·

Crazy how we all use common resources without regard for the system as a whole. Some might even call it a tragedy.

fireismyflag 6y ago
I understood that reference
guerrilla 6y ago
Have you seen Elinor Ostrom's work[1]? She gives the conditions under which commons resource sharing works. Globalized fishing doesn't meet them. I believe she was the first woman to win a Nobel Prizein economics too. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom
- jbay808 6y ago
  What would her recommendation be?
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    I can't say with confidence but I suspect using government to artificially create the conditions.
    - simonh 6y ago
      It turns it into a self regulated market. For example one of the principles is that the self regulation of the participants must be recognised as autonomous by higher authorities. The basic principle is that it makes the long term health and viability of the resource in the interests of those exploiting it, by putting the ability to effectively manage the resource long term in their hands.
  - petre 6y ago
    Institutional agreements. Like the UN and the WHO but for fishing. That'd probably work when there's no more fish in the sea.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  Better link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Design_principles_for_Common_Pool_Resource_(CPR)_institution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Design_principle...
BurningFrog 6y ago
Textbook "tragedy of the commons". I understand Iceland and New Zealand has systems with property rights for fishing grounds, which has solved these problems.
- boxed 6y ago
  Plus Iceland just declared control over huge swaths of the ocean and we are all immensely better off because of this unilateral action.
- gnat 6y ago
  Property rights did not solve overfishing problems in NZ. We have had crashing fish stocks, and new problems like exploited foreign workers.
- stuzenz 6y ago
  New Zealand has fisheries management with a lot of quota provided to Maori Iwi (tribes) who in turn might sell the quota or run a fishing business outright or in partnership. Additionally Maori have customary fishing rights for funerals and other customary events. I am not quite sure what you mean by property rights and what it means in reference to other places. On a side note, New Zealand just changed a number of significant fishing rules for commercial and recreational fisherman. The new restrictions on types of fishing that are allowed are to help protect both the Hectors dolphin (est. 10,000 left) and the Maui dolphin (est. 50 left. It is good to see these unilateral efforts are possible in NZ due to their being no competing interests who have legal entitlement to the same waters. Annecdotally, It is still relatively easy to go to the beach in NZ and catch a few fish of 2 - 6kg in size. https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/sustainable-fisheries/managing-our-impact-on-marine-life/protecting-hectors-and-maui-dolphins/ https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/sustainable-...
  - tuatoru 6y ago
    > I am not quite sure what you mean by property rights The "property" is the quota, the proportion of the total allowed catch of a species. As you say quotas can be bought and sold, so they are ordinary property. (The total catch is set annually, sometimes even based on the recommendations of fisheries experts.)

I understood that reference

Have you seen Elinor Ostrom's work[1]? She gives the conditions under which commons resource sharing works. Globalized fishing doesn't meet them. I believe she was the first woman to win a Nobel Prizein economics too. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom

jbay808 6y ago
What would her recommendation be?
- guerrilla 6y ago
  I can't say with confidence but I suspect using government to artificially create the conditions.
  - simonh 6y ago
    It turns it into a self regulated market. For example one of the principles is that the self regulation of the participants must be recognised as autonomous by higher authorities. The basic principle is that it makes the long term health and viability of the resource in the interests of those exploiting it, by putting the ability to effectively manage the resource long term in their hands.
- petre 6y ago
  Institutional agreements. Like the UN and the WHO but for fishing. That'd probably work when there's no more fish in the sea.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
Better link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Design_principles_for_Common_Pool_Resource_(CPR)_institution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom#Design_principle...

BurningFrog 6y ago

Textbook "tragedy of the commons". I understand Iceland and New Zealand has systems with property rights for fishing grounds, which has solved these problems.

boxed 6y ago
Plus Iceland just declared control over huge swaths of the ocean and we are all immensely better off because of this unilateral action.
gnat 6y ago
Property rights did not solve overfishing problems in NZ. We have had crashing fish stocks, and new problems like exploited foreign workers.
stuzenz 6y ago
New Zealand has fisheries management with a lot of quota provided to Maori Iwi (tribes) who in turn might sell the quota or run a fishing business outright or in partnership. Additionally Maori have customary fishing rights for funerals and other customary events. I am not quite sure what you mean by property rights and what it means in reference to other places. On a side note, New Zealand just changed a number of significant fishing rules for commercial and recreational fisherman. The new restrictions on types of fishing that are allowed are to help protect both the Hectors dolphin (est. 10,000 left) and the Maui dolphin (est. 50 left. It is good to see these unilateral efforts are possible in NZ due to their being no competing interests who have legal entitlement to the same waters. Annecdotally, It is still relatively easy to go to the beach in NZ and catch a few fish of 2 - 6kg in size. https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/sustainable-fisheries/managing-our-impact-on-marine-life/protecting-hectors-and-maui-dolphins/ https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/sustainable-...
- tuatoru 6y ago
  > I am not quite sure what you mean by property rights The "property" is the quota, the proportion of the total allowed catch of a species. As you say quotas can be bought and sold, so they are ordinary property. (The total catch is set annually, sometimes even based on the recommendations of fisheries experts.)