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I'll take that as a sarcastic response and that you doubt that reducing the influence of nations would promote peace. Tribalism (Nationalism) is the cause or j

I'll take that as a sarcastic response and that you doubt that reducing the influence of nations would promote peace. Tribalism (Nationalism) is the cause or justification for most wars, no? Us against Them. Whether it's Nations or Religions or Races. I think tribalism is so deeply rooted in most of our cultures, that ideas that challenge it are hard to process for most people. I think there's a lot of value in challenging assumptions. This specific proposal has a whole host of problems with it, but there is still merit in the idea of dealing with the cultural forces of nationalism.

vetinari 6y ago
> Tribalism (Nationalism) is the cause or justification for most wars, no? No. It may be a banner under which a specific group is united, but it is never a cause. The urge to take over resources that someone else controls is.
- allannienhuis 6y ago
  I think it's fair to say that the root of most/much war is greed in one form or the other. But it doesn't work without being able to convince other people that they'll benefit from joining that cause, based on being members of your group/nation. Those wars are justified typically by generating a shared sense of fear and/or hate for the other side. If people's ties or shared identity to that group were weaker, it would be harder for people to buy into that propaganda. I find this interesting, because without some unifying forces I don't think our modern society would be able to function well. I'm just not sure Geography and national identity/culture are the best way to unify people. Can't say that I have any better alternatives though, other than thinking that if our personal identities were less tied to our national identity, the world might be a little friendlier place.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    Persuading masses, that there's some higher good worth pursuing is how all ideologies work (including religion). For creating a us/them group, any shared/diving trait can be used. It can be tribal, religion, or it can be class (bourgeoisie vs workers), or ahem intersectional.
tsar_bomba 6y ago
Nationalism is drawing borders around preexistent tribalism to keep it contained. It is exactly violations of those borders which got us wars in Europe. Sometimes for the sake of colonization, sometimes for the sake of unification, sometimes for the sake of ill-conceived peace, and almost always a bad idea in the end. I'm not even that much optimistic about the future of the EU, to be honest.

vetinari 6y ago

> Tribalism (Nationalism) is the cause or justification for most wars, no? No. It may be a banner under which a specific group is united, but it is never a cause. The urge to take over resources that someone else controls is.

allannienhuis 6y ago
I think it's fair to say that the root of most/much war is greed in one form or the other. But it doesn't work without being able to convince other people that they'll benefit from joining that cause, based on being members of your group/nation. Those wars are justified typically by generating a shared sense of fear and/or hate for the other side. If people's ties or shared identity to that group were weaker, it would be harder for people to buy into that propaganda. I find this interesting, because without some unifying forces I don't think our modern society would be able to function well. I'm just not sure Geography and national identity/culture are the best way to unify people. Can't say that I have any better alternatives though, other than thinking that if our personal identities were less tied to our national identity, the world might be a little friendlier place.
- vetinari 6y ago
  Persuading masses, that there's some higher good worth pursuing is how all ideologies work (including religion). For creating a us/them group, any shared/diving trait can be used. It can be tribal, religion, or it can be class (bourgeoisie vs workers), or ahem intersectional.

tsar_bomba 6y ago

Nationalism is drawing borders around preexistent tribalism to keep it contained. It is exactly violations of those borders which got us wars in Europe. Sometimes for the sake of colonization, sometimes for the sake of unification, sometimes for the sake of ill-conceived peace, and almost always a bad idea in the end. I'm not even that much optimistic about the future of the EU, to be honest.