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He was real change in wilderness of more of the same. Particularly involving the oversea conflicts and increased outsourcing. Neither Biden nor Clinton were c

He was real change in wilderness of more of the same. Particularly involving the oversea conflicts and increased outsourcing. Neither Biden nor Clinton were credible in my view. Both were corrupt. Both were sold out and more of the same. Both were involved in "regime change". So I forgive a little carnival barker behavior (I, and many others don't care for it either but we understand). It helped bring in a large group of people that don't usually listen to guys in suits. Hope that explains it.

tempestn 6y ago
Not sure if you'll still be checking this thread, but I wanted to respond since I really think it's valuable to try to understand people with very different views from one's own. That said, I do kind of feel like we're operating from very different origins, not just in priorities and beliefs (which might not be all that different), but in understanding of the state of the world. That said, in case you're interested I'll do my best to lay out how I see these things. I can respect the position you laid out. I agree that minimizing wars is a laudable goal. The Iraq war in particular was catastrophic, and Trump indeed didn't start something like that. He did do things that I felt made the world more dangerous, like the 'little rocket man' taunts, and pulling out of the Iran deal, but I can understand the sentiment of supporting less foreign involvement. That said, it just doesn't seem like we're sharing the same baseline worldview in terms of what constitutes corruption, or what behavior is excusable in a public figure. I haven't seen any evidence that Clinton or Biden is corrupt; Trump has said it a lot, but has he produced actual evidence? On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of evidence of Trump profiting from the presidency, such as scheduling events at his properties. Not to mention more serious offenses, like encouraging foreign leaders to investigate his opponents. Much of what you call carnival barker behavior I see as divisive and immoral, from birtherism to calling into question the whole electoral system without apparent evidence. It basically seems like he's willing to say literally anything if he thinks it will rile up support, even if it's entirely made up, deeply insulting, or incredibly divisive. To me the harms done by those actions and behaviors greatly outweigh the potential benefits, unless perhaps you believe that Clinton or Biden would have started another Iraq, which I don't. I guess we'll see over the next few years. But we've already seen the harms, both domestically and abroad; I can tell you for instance that the US's Canadian allies feel a lot less warmly toward not just Trump but the US as a whole after his attitude toward our country. I actually wrote another couple paragraphs, but I really don't want to be argumentative; I'm just trying to similarly lay out my point of view (if you're even still checking this thread). I truly do want to understand the perspective of people who have a very different worldview than my own, especially when they seem reasonable and willing to engage. I realize my own guttural negative reaction toward Trump's behaviour probably biases me against his actions and supporters as well, so I do try to guard against that. Didn't even get to climate change. To be honest, that's maybe the one issue where I would consider (although likely reject) supporting a Trump-like figure on the left, if they seemed likely to advance the goal, since the evidence I've seen really does suggest it's a catastrophe in the making. I'm curious whether your belief that it won't be that bad is more of a feeling based on past overreactions, or whether it's based on evidence or expert opinion that I haven't seen. I'd certainly be happy to be convinced it indeed won't be bad, but to be honest I can't see how that could be, given what I see as pretty concrete evidence of both the fact and trajectory of climate change. We're already seeing impacts on more frequent extreme weather events, and on shrinking habitat for polar and ocean wildlife, like polar bears and coral to name just a couple. Anyway, I appreciate your reply, and conversations like this one do give me some hope for a less antagonistic future.
- mythrwy 6y ago
  Hey no offense and no worries. I also appreciate the discussion. I understand people have different opinions or see the world different ways. I'd also like to try to understand that. I agree that's really important. I think there is often a tendency to see the other side as somehow brainwashed or ill informed and maybe that can be fixed. But maybe it's less of that and more just different priorities. From my perspective #1 was the removal of the neocon war machine. I don't care about stupid, nonprofessional or offensive comments that offend "nice" people (well I do but not very much). I think some people even go a step further and actually like that. I think it's a selling point to a certain crowd. What the liberal prime minister of Canada thinks of the US, what nice people in Canada in offices engaged in upspeak and office talk think of the US is just not that important to me. Perhaps that is a personal failing but it's just not. I have other higher priorities. What is important to me is anyone who voted for the Iraq War, anyone who was a prosecutor in our justice system, anyone that has neocon "democracy" building tendencies or agendas to change the social fabric of the country through various engineering schemes is not given the levers of government. I regard both of those efforts as harmful and doomed to fail. So that's first on my list. There's a lot more I could say, and I will. Let me read through your post again and think. Again, appreciate the chance to express myself without the flame-baiting. I actually had to close my real HN account just after the 2016 election the hatred was so intense. It looks like one can almost admit in polite company now though :)
  - tempestn 6y ago
    I'm not sure I understand the comment about prosecutors. Why does any involvement in the justice system disqualify one from public office? Surely some crimes are worth prosecuting? Also, what are these agendas to change the social fabric of the country through engineering schemes? I don't know what that means. How do you feel about Trump's attempts, with support from others like Lindsey Graham, to undermine confidence in US elections? ISTM that encouraging the public to doubt the foundations of democracy is pretty dangerous. (And I we can agree that this was his plan all along if he appeared to be losing, as it was in 2016, and that he doesn't actually have evidence of widespread fraud, or obviously he would have shown it by now.)

tempestn 6y ago

Not sure if you'll still be checking this thread, but I wanted to respond since I really think it's valuable to try to understand people with very different views from one's own. That said, I do kind of feel like we're operating from very different origins, not just in priorities and beliefs (which might not be all that different), but in understanding of the state of the world. That said, in case you're interested I'll do my best to lay out how I see these things. I can respect the position you laid out. I agree that minimizing wars is a laudable goal. The Iraq war in particular was catastrophic, and Trump indeed didn't start something like that. He did do things that I felt made the world more dangerous, like the 'little rocket man' taunts, and pulling out of the Iran deal, but I can understand the sentiment of supporting less foreign involvement. That said, it just doesn't seem like we're sharing the same baseline worldview in terms of what constitutes corruption, or what behavior is excusable in a public figure. I haven't seen any evidence that Clinton or Biden is corrupt; Trump has said it a lot, but has he produced actual evidence? On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of evidence of Trump profiting from the presidency, such as scheduling events at his properties. Not to mention more serious offenses, like encouraging foreign leaders to investigate his opponents. Much of what you call carnival barker behavior I see as divisive and immoral, from birtherism to calling into question the whole electoral system without apparent evidence. It basically seems like he's willing to say literally anything if he thinks it will rile up support, even if it's entirely made up, deeply insulting, or incredibly divisive. To me the harms done by those actions and behaviors greatly outweigh the potential benefits, unless perhaps you believe that Clinton or Biden would have started another Iraq, which I don't. I guess we'll see over the next few years. But we've already seen the harms, both domestically and abroad; I can tell you for instance that the US's Canadian allies feel a lot less warmly toward not just Trump but the US as a whole after his attitude toward our country. I actually wrote another couple paragraphs, but I really don't want to be argumentative; I'm just trying to similarly lay out my point of view (if you're even still checking this thread). I truly do want to understand the perspective of people who have a very different worldview than my own, especially when they seem reasonable and willing to engage. I realize my own guttural negative reaction toward Trump's behaviour probably biases me against his actions and supporters as well, so I do try to guard against that. Didn't even get to climate change. To be honest, that's maybe the one issue where I would consider (although likely reject) supporting a Trump-like figure on the left, if they seemed likely to advance the goal, since the evidence I've seen really does suggest it's a catastrophe in the making. I'm curious whether your belief that it won't be that bad is more of a feeling based on past overreactions, or whether it's based on evidence or expert opinion that I haven't seen. I'd certainly be happy to be convinced it indeed won't be bad, but to be honest I can't see how that could be, given what I see as pretty concrete evidence of both the fact and trajectory of climate change. We're already seeing impacts on more frequent extreme weather events, and on shrinking habitat for polar and ocean wildlife, like polar bears and coral to name just a couple. Anyway, I appreciate your reply, and conversations like this one do give me some hope for a less antagonistic future.

mythrwy 6y ago
Hey no offense and no worries. I also appreciate the discussion. I understand people have different opinions or see the world different ways. I'd also like to try to understand that. I agree that's really important. I think there is often a tendency to see the other side as somehow brainwashed or ill informed and maybe that can be fixed. But maybe it's less of that and more just different priorities. From my perspective #1 was the removal of the neocon war machine. I don't care about stupid, nonprofessional or offensive comments that offend "nice" people (well I do but not very much). I think some people even go a step further and actually like that. I think it's a selling point to a certain crowd. What the liberal prime minister of Canada thinks of the US, what nice people in Canada in offices engaged in upspeak and office talk think of the US is just not that important to me. Perhaps that is a personal failing but it's just not. I have other higher priorities. What is important to me is anyone who voted for the Iraq War, anyone who was a prosecutor in our justice system, anyone that has neocon "democracy" building tendencies or agendas to change the social fabric of the country through various engineering schemes is not given the levers of government. I regard both of those efforts as harmful and doomed to fail. So that's first on my list. There's a lot more I could say, and I will. Let me read through your post again and think. Again, appreciate the chance to express myself without the flame-baiting. I actually had to close my real HN account just after the 2016 election the hatred was so intense. It looks like one can almost admit in polite company now though :)
- tempestn 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand the comment about prosecutors. Why does any involvement in the justice system disqualify one from public office? Surely some crimes are worth prosecuting? Also, what are these agendas to change the social fabric of the country through engineering schemes? I don't know what that means. How do you feel about Trump's attempts, with support from others like Lindsey Graham, to undermine confidence in US elections? ISTM that encouraging the public to doubt the foundations of democracy is pretty dangerous. (And I we can agree that this was his plan all along if he appeared to be losing, as it was in 2016, and that he doesn't actually have evidence of widespread fraud, or obviously he would have shown it by now.)