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Goodness me, it seems you love to talk politics and a decided one side view of them as well. There is alot to unpack here most of it twisted and filled with i

by syshum 6y ago

Goodness me, it seems you love to talk politics and a decided one side view of them as well. There is alot to unpack here most of it twisted and filled with incomplete or out right false information from a liberal bias that completely ignores a lot of recent history lets start with the most obvious, child separation. While I oppose this, and absolutely oppose the use the fenced in cages. Lets not pretend that Trump's administration created this from thin air, these policies and these buildings / cages where in place before Trump took office, and while you should and can criticize him for not only failing to stop the policy, and by all accounts allowed immigration to ramp up the use of it before outlawing it completely due to public backlash... These policies where not started by Trump. If you want to proclaim some kind of moral superiority, do you really want to point to Drug warriors Biden and Harris as people of moral fortitude. The War on Drugs has cost the lives, directly and indirectly, of many many millions of people, upended families, put millions people of all races (disproportionate number of minorities) in cages, and separated them from their children, created orphans, etc.. Biden and Harris where right there not only cheering that on from the side lines but where ACTIVE participants in this process, they personally sent people to those cages. Where is your moral outrage for those children? for those parents? for those victims? To be clear, I am not a Trump supporter, but I am also not a Biden supporter. Though I would have preferred Trump over Biden for about 11 Trillion Reasons... My politics are libertarian, I am Anti-War, Pro-Gun, Pro-Free Markets, Pro-Free Trade, Open Borders, Anti-Social Welfare and Pro-Legalize Drugs... Biden is bad on all them, Trump is bad only a few of them. I am sure we are going to disagree on most public policy, including COVID Response which I do not believe can or should be a Federal responsibility but should continue to be a State level response, with at most Federal Resources (aka money / supplies / personnel) when needed / requested. I also believe when the final accounting is done a LARGE part of our covid death rate was down to several irresponsible governors mandating COVID positive people be sent to Elder Care Facilities, this was something unheard of in other nations (and not something Trump was responsible for, or could have prevented) and I am still grappling with the logic of that, even in the early days where information was limited However none of that was the point of my comment, the claim was that only Republicans / Trump Supporters are "completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views" That further devolved into claims that Trump supporters want to kill Biden supports, with a link to some wack job. Now you have charged that is false equivalency the point that many democrats also are "completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views" to the point where they are creating lists of Trump supporter I do not believe this to be a false equivalency at all, and the fact that you attempt to justify it either by being willfully ignorant of history, or attempting to spread incomplete or outright false information further proves my point

joshuamorton 6y ago
> Biden and Harris where right there not only cheering that on from the side lines but where ACTIVE participants in this process, they personally sent people to those cages. Absolutely, and this might be an interesting point if they continued to support those policies now, or if anyone voted for them due to those policies. Instead, you see the opposite: Biden and Harris have admitted that those policies that put people in cages were mistakes and that they'd act differently now. On the other hand, Trump has doubled down on putting more people in cages. You can't claim that Trump is superior if he's the only one actively doing it. This of course doesn't mean that he gets a free pass, but Biden will, without a doubt, be better about domestic policy and putting people in cages than Trump will be. Trumps populism depends on caging people his base sees as the outgroup. Like can you explain this argument better, as best as I can tell it's "Hey we know our candidate is actively doing a bad thing, and refused to stop doing it despite pressure to stop, but the other candidate did a similar bad thing a long time ago, and has recognized the mistake and no longer supports that policy. These are equivalent, so ultimately the choices are the same on this issue." > Where is your moral outrage for those children? for those parents? for those victims? Yeah it exists. But I can't fix it now. And again, I would be stupid and uncaring to punish the people currently being put in cages because I disapprove of something a politician did before I was born. > Biden is bad on all them, Trump is bad only a few of them There is no universe in which Trump is better than Biden on Open Borders or Free Trade. You might be able to make that argument with Trump vs. Sanders, but not with Biden. > I also believe when the final accounting is done a LARGE part of our covid death rate was down to several irresponsible governors mandating COVID positive people be sent to Elder Care Facilities As far as I know, that happened in exactly one state and is responsible for, at most, a few thousand deaths. Unacceptable certainly, and NY and NYC absolutely deserves criticism for that mistake. But we're currently seeing similar numbers of deaths weekly, and we have been for the past 20 weeks, and no longer due to the actions of any single state, but due to inaction by governors of many states, in part because those governors have been afraid to go against the president. Even if you believe that policy should be set per state, you should support the president not peddling misinformation and lying about the scope of the pandemic. > Now you have charged that is false equivalency the point that many democrats also are "completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views" to the point where they are creating lists of Trump supporter That's okay, it's clear that you're not willing to consider any argument or information that conflicts with your views ;) Less snarkily, there's no equivalency, false or otherwise, between refusing to work with a person, and refusing to consider a position. Suggesting that a politician who lies and claims that 1000 deaths a day aren't happening is the same as a political who says "hey the guy who lied about the 1000 deaths a day should face political consequences for lying" aren't similar, at all. Perhaps, in 20 or 30 years, when they've proven that they've moved on from those policy positions and demonstrated that they've actually changed, perhaps then they might have redeemed themselves. But on Feb 1? Nah.

by syshum 6y ago

joshuamorton 6y ago

> Biden and Harris where right there not only cheering that on from the side lines but where ACTIVE participants in this process, they personally sent people to those cages. Absolutely, and this might be an interesting point if they continued to support those policies now, or if anyone voted for them due to those policies. Instead, you see the opposite: Biden and Harris have admitted that those policies that put people in cages were mistakes and that they'd act differently now. On the other hand, Trump has doubled down on putting more people in cages. You can't claim that Trump is superior if he's the only one actively doing it. This of course doesn't mean that he gets a free pass, but Biden will, without a doubt, be better about domestic policy and putting people in cages than Trump will be. Trumps populism depends on caging people his base sees as the outgroup. Like can you explain this argument better, as best as I can tell it's "Hey we know our candidate is actively doing a bad thing, and refused to stop doing it despite pressure to stop, but the other candidate did a similar bad thing a long time ago, and has recognized the mistake and no longer supports that policy. These are equivalent, so ultimately the choices are the same on this issue." > Where is your moral outrage for those children? for those parents? for those victims? Yeah it exists. But I can't fix it now. And again, I would be stupid and uncaring to punish the people currently being put in cages because I disapprove of something a politician did before I was born. > Biden is bad on all them, Trump is bad only a few of them There is no universe in which Trump is better than Biden on Open Borders or Free Trade. You might be able to make that argument with Trump vs. Sanders, but not with Biden. > I also believe when the final accounting is done a LARGE part of our covid death rate was down to several irresponsible governors mandating COVID positive people be sent to Elder Care Facilities As far as I know, that happened in exactly one state and is responsible for, at most, a few thousand deaths. Unacceptable certainly, and NY and NYC absolutely deserves criticism for that mistake. But we're currently seeing similar numbers of deaths weekly, and we have been for the past 20 weeks, and no longer due to the actions of any single state, but due to inaction by governors of many states, in part because those governors have been afraid to go against the president. Even if you believe that policy should be set per state, you should support the president not peddling misinformation and lying about the scope of the pandemic. > Now you have charged that is false equivalency the point that many democrats also are "completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views" to the point where they are creating lists of Trump supporter That's okay, it's clear that you're not willing to consider any argument or information that conflicts with your views ;) Less snarkily, there's no equivalency, false or otherwise, between refusing to work with a person, and refusing to consider a position. Suggesting that a politician who lies and claims that 1000 deaths a day aren't happening is the same as a political who says "hey the guy who lied about the 1000 deaths a day should face political consequences for lying" aren't similar, at all. Perhaps, in 20 or 30 years, when they've proven that they've moved on from those policy positions and demonstrated that they've actually changed, perhaps then they might have redeemed themselves. But on Feb 1? Nah.