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It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum: Down-ballot, the Dems did worse t

It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum: Down-ballot, the Dems did worse than Biden, and I suspect that the statistics will show a lot of split ballots. Both on foxnews and on WaPo, there were more news about the more leftist actors. Bernie, AOC, etc. The Dems did not manage to show that these are not the mainstream democratic goals. The pictures of rioters, combined with "defund the police" scared a lot of people, and if you start out skeptical, you might not look close enough that this doesn't mean "get rid of the police", but "descope the police, let them do their job, and find other people to do the things which are not their job".

adamsea 6y ago
> It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum IMHO this is just something people say to push Democrats to the center and then further and further right ... because the evidence shows that the current Republican party won't support any Democratic policy, basically. These folks we're talking about will not be convinced by anything. It's not an honest argument.
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  If you read closely, you will notice that I do not make an argument that the Democrats should be more centrist, but that their strategy was to be centrist, and that they failed to sell it as such. That leaves to options for the future: Not be so centrist, because you can't sell it anyway, or be centrist, but actually sell it. But being centrist and looking leftist seems like a lose-lose, whether you prefer a more leftist or more centrist approach. That being said, it might be interesting to look at Germany, where Merkel moved the CDU left from a center/right position to the center. This secured the CDU a rather long stretch in power, essentially spelled doom for the center/left SPD, but also gave rise to a more hard-left Die Linke and, worse, an ultra-right AfD, whicht started as a conservative party, but essentially was taken over by neo-nazis.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    I may have misread your previous comment -- thank you for the clarification. I do agree with you that it's tricky to try to sell being centrist when you are not, and, in some ways, better to just be out-and-out left. TBH I'm not sure Biden really tried to sell himself as something he is not. He's been pretty clear about wanting to address systemic racism, the green new deal, a science-based response to covid, valuing international coalitions, etc. If anything I'm kind of anticipating him walking back his pledges on those things when in office. Though I hope not. Let's also bear in mind though that, while we can armchair-quarterback, his strategy succeeded. I think the question of if moving to a more aggressively Progressive agenda would bring in voters hungry for change who are otherwise turned off by Democrats, or if moving more to the center to bring in voters turned off by a more Progressive agenda, is an extremely vexed question to which I have no answer. That is interesting about Germany though. And at the end of the day my own belief is that we are living in a time of change, and that it's important to offer policies I believe to be right (mainly Progressive policies) to address that change. Or otherwise the void will be filled, as you pointed out about Germany, by something else. At the same time we haven't seen that approach be successful on a national level in US politics yet. So I don't know. Curious what your thoughts are.
    - davrosthedalek 6y ago
      I do think Biden stayed true to what he believes. I think he might not have pushed the green new deal so hard by himself, maybe. My point is this: For somebody sympathetic to the Democrats, Biden appears as a rather centrist person. He isn't advocating for abolishing private health-insurance for example. But if you ask a Republican voter (not even a Trumpist), I'm not sure they would say the same. Or they believe that the party would force him to be more left. I'm not so sure with regard to the votes. 2016, yes, I believe many people on the left were not happy with Clinton and did not vote. This time, we had record vote participation, and I believe that's from both sides, so the result should reflect the true political will in America. It's likely that the coasts would prefer a more progressive candidate, but I think on average, the US is somewhere between Biden and Romney. I like the picture of the pendulum. While Obama was quite centrist, the USA made great advances in personal liberties. Gay marriage and so on. The world was changing too fast for many. Or they felt that their problems weren't in the focus as much, or at all. So the pendulum swung back, and we had Trump. We need to dampen the swinging to make steady progress, and I think Biden might be good at that, maybe especially because of his age. Personally, I am somewhat wary of some of the more progressive ideas. I'm not a big fan of single-payer healthcare, seeing the results in England. I generally think that a market-run system is better than a government-run, but that markets need firm rules set by the government. ACA was pretty good, but long term, America has to get away from the employment-coupled insurances. And covering preexisting conditions necessarily means mandate (or mandate through the backdoor).
- salawat 6y ago
  It's funny, because if you talk about gun control, most Republicans think the same thing about Democrats. The difference being they've been burned over and over by compromise and the fact once something is passed it never gets reviewed or sunset for relevance. It cuts both ways. People disagree, and where they disagree is the most likely place for both sides to hold the other side to account for previous behavior. It's part of why I was so disgusted about fast tracking the Supreme Court nomination after McConnell set a precedent the Presidency before. In terms of game theory it just cemented that the other side couldn't be trusted.
- sagarm 6y ago
  The really interesting thing is that when Democratic platform proposals are on the ballot, they pass even in red states. For example, this year Florida voted for Trump by 2% AND a $15 minimum wage by 20 points. The actual policy is extremely popular, but if a Democratic politician brings it up it just gets labelled socialism.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  This is very inaccurate, and seems to be a misunderstanding among the “defund the police” democrats. And that’s precisely the problem.
cm2187 6y ago
"defund the police" means "defund the police", it is a clear and unambiguous sentence. If you mean "let the police do their job", don't run on "defund the police". It's not that people didn't look close enough at the slogans (and by the way we have seen many cities actually defund their police depts so it doesn't help the idea that the slogan means anything else). I don't think that Biden himself holds leftist views but he also did nothing to distance himself from this fringe, and if he is not neutralised by a republican senate, I think there is a legitimate concern that he will be held hostage by the left wing of the democratic party and apply many of those policies (not the least because Kamala Harris would if he steps down for health reasons).
watwut 6y ago
> It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum tldr; Republicans did not even attempted to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum. Why is that the democrats are supposed to reach to center both when they won and loose? I don't think so. When you are closed in right wing bubble, Biden is hardcore socialist, nearly progressive communist about to destroy American capitalism. Literally. He is also sleepy Joe in clear early stage of dementia. This has zero to do with what democrats demonstrated. This is made up, because making it up is good for "our side". It does not matter what Biden is or demonstrates. Frankly, it is like relationship with narcissist. Dont let him/her gaslight you into thinking you are at fault for whatever was done to you. It is overall unfair and biased toward right wing. You dont fix relationship with narcissist by going out of your way further and further trying to prove made up accusations are false. It does not work, the middle just shifts constantly and abuse just escalates. Republicans did not demonstrated the Trump along people he appointed, proud boys are not what the party is. You want left to stop pursuing their own policy goals, with threat that right wing will go crazy if they dont. But that is abusive logic, right wing is responsible for right wing does. And left wing is responsible for left wing does.
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  Trunp didn't, but many other Republicans did. Or let me phrase it a different way: The Democrats made it stick that the right wing fringe = Trump, but they didn't make it stick for down-ballot races. It was the other way around for the Republicans, I think. So you can either take your ball and go home, or you can try to pierce the bubble. Hoping for them to come out of the bubble on their own seems pointless.
  - watwut 6y ago
    I do agree with ball analogy, but disagree that it has anything to do with trying to move further and further to the right to accommodate people who don't listen to you.
tempestn 6y ago
What I don't understand is, Bernie is painted as this rabid socialist, but what are his positions that people don't actually like? He wants single-payer healthcare. So do most Americans. (And as a Canadian I can tell you, it sure is nice not having to worry about cost every time I need to visit the doctor, or if I were to have an accident and need to go to the hospital.) If not that, then what?
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  For one thing, people don’t like the impossible price tag associated with his ideas. They don’t like throwing good money after bad. They are in fear of having their life depend on a system that might function similar to other organizations like the DMV or the VA or USCIS. And generally speaking, if you have insurance, quality of care is much better than Canada. So even compassionate people who understand why it’s a problem for people who can’t afford care still have some reluctance to an irreversible commitment that carries so much risk. It’s purely rational on their part, and it’s hard to criticize people for acting rationally.
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    It's an impossible pricetag only because we don't tax the rich. Billionaires have taken $50 trillion from the poor and middle class. The poor and middle class are afraid of taxes because they have nothing left to give.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      No, they haven’t. When you order snacks from Amazon, Bezos isn’t “taking” your money. You’re giving it to him.
      - thomastjeffery 6y ago
        What's the difference? Poor and middle class Americans are afraid of higher taxes because they don't have enough money. Where did all the money go? To 400 billionaires. 50 of them now control as much wealth as the poorest 165 million Americans. Tens of millions of Americans are in poverty, and what do we do about it? Pray to Bill Gates? Jeff Bezos? What do I have to convince them to give their wealth to me? Tens of millions of Americans are in poverty. 10% of Americans hold 70% of wealth, and they are all getting richer. Their income comes either from the rest of us or from inflation.

adamsea 6y ago

> It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum IMHO this is just something people say to push Democrats to the center and then further and further right ... because the evidence shows that the current Republican party won't support any Democratic policy, basically. These folks we're talking about will not be convinced by anything. It's not an honest argument.

davrosthedalek 6y ago
If you read closely, you will notice that I do not make an argument that the Democrats should be more centrist, but that their strategy was to be centrist, and that they failed to sell it as such. That leaves to options for the future: Not be so centrist, because you can't sell it anyway, or be centrist, but actually sell it. But being centrist and looking leftist seems like a lose-lose, whether you prefer a more leftist or more centrist approach. That being said, it might be interesting to look at Germany, where Merkel moved the CDU left from a center/right position to the center. This secured the CDU a rather long stretch in power, essentially spelled doom for the center/left SPD, but also gave rise to a more hard-left Die Linke and, worse, an ultra-right AfD, whicht started as a conservative party, but essentially was taken over by neo-nazis.
- adamsea 6y ago
  I may have misread your previous comment -- thank you for the clarification. I do agree with you that it's tricky to try to sell being centrist when you are not, and, in some ways, better to just be out-and-out left. TBH I'm not sure Biden really tried to sell himself as something he is not. He's been pretty clear about wanting to address systemic racism, the green new deal, a science-based response to covid, valuing international coalitions, etc. If anything I'm kind of anticipating him walking back his pledges on those things when in office. Though I hope not. Let's also bear in mind though that, while we can armchair-quarterback, his strategy succeeded. I think the question of if moving to a more aggressively Progressive agenda would bring in voters hungry for change who are otherwise turned off by Democrats, or if moving more to the center to bring in voters turned off by a more Progressive agenda, is an extremely vexed question to which I have no answer. That is interesting about Germany though. And at the end of the day my own belief is that we are living in a time of change, and that it's important to offer policies I believe to be right (mainly Progressive policies) to address that change. Or otherwise the void will be filled, as you pointed out about Germany, by something else. At the same time we haven't seen that approach be successful on a national level in US politics yet. So I don't know. Curious what your thoughts are.
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    I do think Biden stayed true to what he believes. I think he might not have pushed the green new deal so hard by himself, maybe. My point is this: For somebody sympathetic to the Democrats, Biden appears as a rather centrist person. He isn't advocating for abolishing private health-insurance for example. But if you ask a Republican voter (not even a Trumpist), I'm not sure they would say the same. Or they believe that the party would force him to be more left. I'm not so sure with regard to the votes. 2016, yes, I believe many people on the left were not happy with Clinton and did not vote. This time, we had record vote participation, and I believe that's from both sides, so the result should reflect the true political will in America. It's likely that the coasts would prefer a more progressive candidate, but I think on average, the US is somewhere between Biden and Romney. I like the picture of the pendulum. While Obama was quite centrist, the USA made great advances in personal liberties. Gay marriage and so on. The world was changing too fast for many. Or they felt that their problems weren't in the focus as much, or at all. So the pendulum swung back, and we had Trump. We need to dampen the swinging to make steady progress, and I think Biden might be good at that, maybe especially because of his age. Personally, I am somewhat wary of some of the more progressive ideas. I'm not a big fan of single-payer healthcare, seeing the results in England. I generally think that a market-run system is better than a government-run, but that markets need firm rules set by the government. ACA was pretty good, but long term, America has to get away from the employment-coupled insurances. And covering preexisting conditions necessarily means mandate (or mandate through the backdoor).
salawat 6y ago
It's funny, because if you talk about gun control, most Republicans think the same thing about Democrats. The difference being they've been burned over and over by compromise and the fact once something is passed it never gets reviewed or sunset for relevance. It cuts both ways. People disagree, and where they disagree is the most likely place for both sides to hold the other side to account for previous behavior. It's part of why I was so disgusted about fast tracking the Supreme Court nomination after McConnell set a precedent the Presidency before. In terms of game theory it just cemented that the other side couldn't be trusted.
sagarm 6y ago
The really interesting thing is that when Democratic platform proposals are on the ballot, they pass even in red states. For example, this year Florida voted for Trump by 2% AND a $15 minimum wage by 20 points. The actual policy is extremely popular, but if a Democratic politician brings it up it just gets labelled socialism.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
This is very inaccurate, and seems to be a misunderstanding among the “defund the police” democrats. And that’s precisely the problem.

cm2187 6y ago

"defund the police" means "defund the police", it is a clear and unambiguous sentence. If you mean "let the police do their job", don't run on "defund the police". It's not that people didn't look close enough at the slogans (and by the way we have seen many cities actually defund their police depts so it doesn't help the idea that the slogan means anything else). I don't think that Biden himself holds leftist views but he also did nothing to distance himself from this fringe, and if he is not neutralised by a republican senate, I think there is a legitimate concern that he will be held hostage by the left wing of the democratic party and apply many of those policies (not the least because Kamala Harris would if he steps down for health reasons).

watwut 6y ago

> It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum tldr; Republicans did not even attempted to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum. Why is that the democrats are supposed to reach to center both when they won and loose? I don't think so. When you are closed in right wing bubble, Biden is hardcore socialist, nearly progressive communist about to destroy American capitalism. Literally. He is also sleepy Joe in clear early stage of dementia. This has zero to do with what democrats demonstrated. This is made up, because making it up is good for "our side". It does not matter what Biden is or demonstrates. Frankly, it is like relationship with narcissist. Dont let him/her gaslight you into thinking you are at fault for whatever was done to you. It is overall unfair and biased toward right wing. You dont fix relationship with narcissist by going out of your way further and further trying to prove made up accusations are false. It does not work, the middle just shifts constantly and abuse just escalates. Republicans did not demonstrated the Trump along people he appointed, proud boys are not what the party is. You want left to stop pursuing their own policy goals, with threat that right wing will go crazy if they dont. But that is abusive logic, right wing is responsible for right wing does. And left wing is responsible for left wing does.

davrosthedalek 6y ago
Trunp didn't, but many other Republicans did. Or let me phrase it a different way: The Democrats made it stick that the right wing fringe = Trump, but they didn't make it stick for down-ballot races. It was the other way around for the Republicans, I think. So you can either take your ball and go home, or you can try to pierce the bubble. Hoping for them to come out of the bubble on their own seems pointless.
- watwut 6y ago
  I do agree with ball analogy, but disagree that it has anything to do with trying to move further and further to the right to accommodate people who don't listen to you.

tempestn 6y ago

What I don't understand is, Bernie is painted as this rabid socialist, but what are his positions that people don't actually like? He wants single-payer healthcare. So do most Americans. (And as a Canadian I can tell you, it sure is nice not having to worry about cost every time I need to visit the doctor, or if I were to have an accident and need to go to the hospital.) If not that, then what?

lawnchair_larry 6y ago
For one thing, people don’t like the impossible price tag associated with his ideas. They don’t like throwing good money after bad. They are in fear of having their life depend on a system that might function similar to other organizations like the DMV or the VA or USCIS. And generally speaking, if you have insurance, quality of care is much better than Canada. So even compassionate people who understand why it’s a problem for people who can’t afford care still have some reluctance to an irreversible commitment that carries so much risk. It’s purely rational on their part, and it’s hard to criticize people for acting rationally.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  It's an impossible pricetag only because we don't tax the rich. Billionaires have taken $50 trillion from the poor and middle class. The poor and middle class are afraid of taxes because they have nothing left to give.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    No, they haven’t. When you order snacks from Amazon, Bezos isn’t “taking” your money. You’re giving it to him.
    - thomastjeffery 6y ago
      What's the difference? Poor and middle class Americans are afraid of higher taxes because they don't have enough money. Where did all the money go? To 400 billionaires. 50 of them now control as much wealth as the poorest 165 million Americans. Tens of millions of Americans are in poverty, and what do we do about it? Pray to Bill Gates? Jeff Bezos? What do I have to convince them to give their wealth to me? Tens of millions of Americans are in poverty. 10% of Americans hold 70% of wealth, and they are all getting richer. Their income comes either from the rest of us or from inflation.