6 ms·

>Yes, there is a ton of common ground What's an example of some common ground you see, and very roughly how does it happen? For example, we all agree that X is

by xnyan 6y ago

>Yes, there is a ton of common ground What's an example of some common ground you see, and very roughly how does it happen? For example, we all agree that X is bad, so we will pass a bill to do Y. Obviously, that example is hypothetical. Any common ground will not involve legislation as the explicitly stated and (very successfully practiced for 6 years) position of one party is a hard-stop on any legislative cooperation.

jariel 6y ago
This may be a surprise, but there is 'Common Ground' on almost all of the issues, even the most difficult, like abortion. 85% of Americans believe there is racism in America. If it were not political, reform in the prison system could absolutely be achieved. The vast majority of Americans would accept reforms to Healthcare if each law were not hugely politicized. For example, some Republican voters accept or reject literally the same policy when it's presented by different sides of the aisle. Americans would overwhelmingly accept some kind of Amnesty for children of migrants, and 'some kind' of program for others if - on the other side of the aisle - there were serious reforms and enhancements to ensure border integrity. Any attempt to offer amnesty would probably be weaponized by Republicans and Fox for political points. The majority of Americans believe that fetus/babies that are viable in the 3rd trimester (i.e. could be born premature) should not be up for abortion. But that 'the day of conception' isn't really tantamount to life. But the extremists won't allow for any common ground. Even on business tax, income tax - if you actually put numbers together, there are plans that are very popular, but rejected by one radical side or another. Left wing Governor Cuomo, and Far Left Wing Mayor Deblasio pushed hard for the Amazon deal for NYC, but AOC et. al. really pushed to kill it even though the majority of her constituents (ever people of colour) wanted it. Amazons investment in NYC, while controversial, was quite popular - but killed by more radical voices. Popular political systems tend to promote and highlight the more extreme views, this is amplified in the press with arguing talking heads. AOC, Donald Trump get huge attention for the loud, bombastic, contrarian positions they take. In politics 'attention' is everything, that's their currency. They are not incented to 'govern well' they are incented to 'get >50% of the votes' which they do so by making a lot of noise, and spinning everything their opponents do against them. It takes a lot of maturity, a lot of credibility in systems to get away from that. Go ahead and have a look at the politics of Germany, they have some English language sites. They have some actual Nazis over there, and yet, somehow, the news and debate is still deftly boring. It's really amazing. Angela Merkel, possibly my favorite politician, has to be the most 'opposite' to Donald Trump imaginable. Coalition governments have a lot to do with that as well.
- klipt 6y ago
  > Coalition governments have a lot to do with that as well. There are people who argue that the US presidential system is inherently unstable compared to parliamentary systems: https://newrepublic.com/article/130028/americas-presidential-system-doomed https://newrepublic.com/article/130028/americas-presidential...
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  > This may be a surprise, but there is 'Common Ground' on almost all of the issues, even the most difficult, like abortion. There's no middle ground on abortion when there's a number of people that won't even accept the abortion of a fetus that is already dead. There's no middle ground when a significant number of people believe that a fetus should have the same legal protections as a human, so any abortion is murder and make no exceptions for rape, incest, or even when the pregnancy is threatening the life of the mother. > Americans would overwhelmingly accept some kind of Amnesty for children of migrants Eh not really. I know this is merely anecdata, but I personally know someone who firmly believes that an immigrant overstaying their visa has committed a crime, is now a criminal, and they (and their family) need to be deported immediately.
  - jariel 6y ago
    "There's no middle ground on abortion when there's a number of people that won't even accept the abortion of a fetus that is already dead." You're missing my argument here. You are highlighting an example of an 'extremist' view - this doesn't in any way indicate there is 'no common' ground. Maybe own views on abortion might have triggered you to miss this (?) and that there are extremists on the 'other end of the spectrum' - there are those who believe that a baby, near the point of being born, possibly even 'past due' is merely a 'fetus' and should have no rights. 3rd trimester abortions are quite rare, but they do exist and there are some who push for them. The point is that abortion, which is a really difficult moral issue with extremism on either side, actually does have a huge common ground. The vast majority of Americans, outside of hyperbole, would essentially accept 'early abortions' as fairly unambiguously acceptable. Beyond that, it would be more contentious. The 'hard anti-abortion' camp would obviously not like that, and the 'hard fetus is only a fetus' camp would be livid that there were restrictions on later abortions. But the 'centre ground' would hold, at least in terms of popular acceptance. Of course it won't happen because the 'far sides' war with each other on it. We may, over decades, arrive at some kind of result that looks like that, we mostly already have. "I personally know someone who firmly believes that an immigrant overstaying their visa has committed a crime, is now a criminal, and they (and their family) need to be deported immediately." Again - this kind of misses the 'centre ground' argument. That you know someone who thinks 'any overstay should be aborted' only indicates that there are people who feel strongly about it. It says nothing about the 'common ground'. Here is the evidence [1]. Even a majority of Republicans support DACA. I'd encourage everyone to spend a lot of time in Pew Research, it's amazing. There are a lot of surveys in there with respect to so many issues that one might find surprising. It is frankly Pew Research that has made be understand how much common ground their is, and my OP is really based on quite some time perusing that data - I should have probably referred to it - but on every one if the issues I highlighted, there's Pew data to support it. Here's some data on policing [2] [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/17/americans-broadly-support-legal-status-for-immigrants-brought-to-the-u-s-illegally-as-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/17/americans-b... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/05/a-month-before-george-floyds-death-black-and-white-americans-differed-sharply-in-confidence-in-the-police/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/05/a-month-bef...
dbrueck 6y ago
> What's an example of some common ground you see Consider pretty much any issue and there is big fat core of common ground, but typically the debate is around how to best address that issue - what is the best approach, do we tackle this problem now or do we tackle that other problem first, will this path lead to bad unintended consequences, etc. Immigration. Most people have a pretty favorable view of immigration and immigrants - pretty much everyone has an immigrant story in their background. The debate is more on the requirements to be let in, especially in cases where there is an established legal process and someone doesn't follow that process. Taxes. Few people want to pay more than is needed. Everyone wants taxation to be fair. It's not hard to get people to admit that they see a lot of good can come from the proper use of taxes. The debate is more about tax rates, where taxes should be spent, etc. Abortion. A huge majority of Americans do not like the idea of completely restriction-free abortions and quite a few people have concerns that, pre-birth, that thing inside the mother is a person to some degree or another. Simultaneously a huge majority of Americans do not like the idea of the government exerting control and getting involved in people's lives any more than it should. Gun control, the economy, national defense, education, the climate. It goes on and on - name any issue and there's a ton of common ground. For people who are interested in progress and solving problems, it's ripe with opportunity.
- distrill 6y ago
  > Immigration. Most people have a pretty favorable view of immigration and immigrants - pretty much everyone has an immigrant story in their background. The debate is more on the requirements to be let in, especially in cases where there is an established legal process and someone doesn't follow that process. I used to think this, but after speaking with trump supporters over the last few years (consisting of both friendships IRL as well as inflammatory people online) I'm hearing more and more the rhetoric that immigrants are just bad - keep the foreigners out
  - dbrueck 6y ago
    Ok, well, anecdotally I'm hearing the opposite. :) Everyone I talk to recognizes the value of immigration generally and is focused entirely on illegal immigration.

by xnyan 6y ago

jariel 6y ago

This may be a surprise, but there is 'Common Ground' on almost all of the issues, even the most difficult, like abortion. 85% of Americans believe there is racism in America. If it were not political, reform in the prison system could absolutely be achieved. The vast majority of Americans would accept reforms to Healthcare if each law were not hugely politicized. For example, some Republican voters accept or reject literally the same policy when it's presented by different sides of the aisle. Americans would overwhelmingly accept some kind of Amnesty for children of migrants, and 'some kind' of program for others if - on the other side of the aisle - there were serious reforms and enhancements to ensure border integrity. Any attempt to offer amnesty would probably be weaponized by Republicans and Fox for political points. The majority of Americans believe that fetus/babies that are viable in the 3rd trimester (i.e. could be born premature) should not be up for abortion. But that 'the day of conception' isn't really tantamount to life. But the extremists won't allow for any common ground. Even on business tax, income tax - if you actually put numbers together, there are plans that are very popular, but rejected by one radical side or another. Left wing Governor Cuomo, and Far Left Wing Mayor Deblasio pushed hard for the Amazon deal for NYC, but AOC et. al. really pushed to kill it even though the majority of her constituents (ever people of colour) wanted it. Amazons investment in NYC, while controversial, was quite popular - but killed by more radical voices. Popular political systems tend to promote and highlight the more extreme views, this is amplified in the press with arguing talking heads. AOC, Donald Trump get huge attention for the loud, bombastic, contrarian positions they take. In politics 'attention' is everything, that's their currency. They are not incented to 'govern well' they are incented to 'get >50% of the votes' which they do so by making a lot of noise, and spinning everything their opponents do against them. It takes a lot of maturity, a lot of credibility in systems to get away from that. Go ahead and have a look at the politics of Germany, they have some English language sites. They have some actual Nazis over there, and yet, somehow, the news and debate is still deftly boring. It's really amazing. Angela Merkel, possibly my favorite politician, has to be the most 'opposite' to Donald Trump imaginable. Coalition governments have a lot to do with that as well.

klipt 6y ago
> Coalition governments have a lot to do with that as well. There are people who argue that the US presidential system is inherently unstable compared to parliamentary systems: https://newrepublic.com/article/130028/americas-presidential-system-doomed https://newrepublic.com/article/130028/americas-presidential...
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
> This may be a surprise, but there is 'Common Ground' on almost all of the issues, even the most difficult, like abortion. There's no middle ground on abortion when there's a number of people that won't even accept the abortion of a fetus that is already dead. There's no middle ground when a significant number of people believe that a fetus should have the same legal protections as a human, so any abortion is murder and make no exceptions for rape, incest, or even when the pregnancy is threatening the life of the mother. > Americans would overwhelmingly accept some kind of Amnesty for children of migrants Eh not really. I know this is merely anecdata, but I personally know someone who firmly believes that an immigrant overstaying their visa has committed a crime, is now a criminal, and they (and their family) need to be deported immediately.
- jariel 6y ago
  "There's no middle ground on abortion when there's a number of people that won't even accept the abortion of a fetus that is already dead." You're missing my argument here. You are highlighting an example of an 'extremist' view - this doesn't in any way indicate there is 'no common' ground. Maybe own views on abortion might have triggered you to miss this (?) and that there are extremists on the 'other end of the spectrum' - there are those who believe that a baby, near the point of being born, possibly even 'past due' is merely a 'fetus' and should have no rights. 3rd trimester abortions are quite rare, but they do exist and there are some who push for them. The point is that abortion, which is a really difficult moral issue with extremism on either side, actually does have a huge common ground. The vast majority of Americans, outside of hyperbole, would essentially accept 'early abortions' as fairly unambiguously acceptable. Beyond that, it would be more contentious. The 'hard anti-abortion' camp would obviously not like that, and the 'hard fetus is only a fetus' camp would be livid that there were restrictions on later abortions. But the 'centre ground' would hold, at least in terms of popular acceptance. Of course it won't happen because the 'far sides' war with each other on it. We may, over decades, arrive at some kind of result that looks like that, we mostly already have. "I personally know someone who firmly believes that an immigrant overstaying their visa has committed a crime, is now a criminal, and they (and their family) need to be deported immediately." Again - this kind of misses the 'centre ground' argument. That you know someone who thinks 'any overstay should be aborted' only indicates that there are people who feel strongly about it. It says nothing about the 'common ground'. Here is the evidence [1]. Even a majority of Republicans support DACA. I'd encourage everyone to spend a lot of time in Pew Research, it's amazing. There are a lot of surveys in there with respect to so many issues that one might find surprising. It is frankly Pew Research that has made be understand how much common ground their is, and my OP is really based on quite some time perusing that data - I should have probably referred to it - but on every one if the issues I highlighted, there's Pew data to support it. Here's some data on policing [2] [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/17/americans-broadly-support-legal-status-for-immigrants-brought-to-the-u-s-illegally-as-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/17/americans-b... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/05/a-month-before-george-floyds-death-black-and-white-americans-differed-sharply-in-confidence-in-the-police/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/05/a-month-bef...

dbrueck 6y ago

> What's an example of some common ground you see Consider pretty much any issue and there is big fat core of common ground, but typically the debate is around how to best address that issue - what is the best approach, do we tackle this problem now or do we tackle that other problem first, will this path lead to bad unintended consequences, etc. Immigration. Most people have a pretty favorable view of immigration and immigrants - pretty much everyone has an immigrant story in their background. The debate is more on the requirements to be let in, especially in cases where there is an established legal process and someone doesn't follow that process. Taxes. Few people want to pay more than is needed. Everyone wants taxation to be fair. It's not hard to get people to admit that they see a lot of good can come from the proper use of taxes. The debate is more about tax rates, where taxes should be spent, etc. Abortion. A huge majority of Americans do not like the idea of completely restriction-free abortions and quite a few people have concerns that, pre-birth, that thing inside the mother is a person to some degree or another. Simultaneously a huge majority of Americans do not like the idea of the government exerting control and getting involved in people's lives any more than it should. Gun control, the economy, national defense, education, the climate. It goes on and on - name any issue and there's a ton of common ground. For people who are interested in progress and solving problems, it's ripe with opportunity.

distrill 6y ago
> Immigration. Most people have a pretty favorable view of immigration and immigrants - pretty much everyone has an immigrant story in their background. The debate is more on the requirements to be let in, especially in cases where there is an established legal process and someone doesn't follow that process. I used to think this, but after speaking with trump supporters over the last few years (consisting of both friendships IRL as well as inflammatory people online) I'm hearing more and more the rhetoric that immigrants are just bad - keep the foreigners out
- dbrueck 6y ago
  Ok, well, anecdotally I'm hearing the opposite. :) Everyone I talk to recognizes the value of immigration generally and is focused entirely on illegal immigration.