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I don't see how that can be the case when nearly 50 percent of the country still supported Trump despite Biden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform

I don't see how that can be the case when nearly 50 percent of the country still supported Trump despite Biden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform. If this matchup wasn't enough to get Republicans to cross the aisle then I'm not sure I believe that anything is.

abc-xyz 6y ago
It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well. It's possible. But the numbers don't bear this out. In every state that was close where Biden won, his margin of victory was less than the number of votes that Jo Jorgensen (the Libertarian candidate) received. That tells me that enough R-types were disgusted enough with Trump that they voted Libertarian for President and R for everyone else. Check out the numbers for yourself[0]. Just click on each state and it will break down the vote totals for each candidate. And in every. single. case. the margin of victory for Biden is less than the number of votes received by Jo Jorgensen. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-election-results-live-map https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-electi...
  - syshum 6y ago
    Jo under performed Gary Johnson from 2016, so I do not believe your correlation is very valid In Some States, Like Nevada, the number of people that choose "NONE OF THESE CANDIDATES" for president more or less matches the number of people that voted for Jo... Further an over all Analysis shows there were almost as many Split Biden votes, as there were Split Trump Votes This idea that "3rd party spoils the election" or changes the election has been dis-proven often, as absent the 3rd choice most people that vote 3rd party simply do not vote at all, or choose no one in that particular race (which is an option most people for get, you do not have to pick a person in every race on a ballot, blank is a valid choice)
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
Biden was running as a centrist?! That's news to me.
- harimau777 6y ago
  Biden's branding during the primaries revolved around not being as extreme as candidates like Sanders and Warren. Then during the election his branding predominantly revolved around healing America's partisan divides. He was definitely running as a centrist.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  What positions has he taken that you view as extreme?
- rbg246 6y ago
  I know right, he is definitely on the right in the political spectrum. The left or even centre-left has never been in power in the US and probably never will.
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  That's what most of the Republican voters I know said. The GOP has gone so far right that "centrist" is unrecognizable.
davrosthedalek 6y ago
It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum: Down-ballot, the Dems did worse than Biden, and I suspect that the statistics will show a lot of split ballots. Both on foxnews and on WaPo, there were more news about the more leftist actors. Bernie, AOC, etc. The Dems did not manage to show that these are not the mainstream democratic goals. The pictures of rioters, combined with "defund the police" scared a lot of people, and if you start out skeptical, you might not look close enough that this doesn't mean "get rid of the police", but "descope the police, let them do their job, and find other people to do the things which are not their job".
- adamsea 6y ago
  > It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum IMHO this is just something people say to push Democrats to the center and then further and further right ... because the evidence shows that the current Republican party won't support any Democratic policy, basically. These folks we're talking about will not be convinced by anything. It's not an honest argument.
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    If you read closely, you will notice that I do not make an argument that the Democrats should be more centrist, but that their strategy was to be centrist, and that they failed to sell it as such. That leaves to options for the future: Not be so centrist, because you can't sell it anyway, or be centrist, but actually sell it. But being centrist and looking leftist seems like a lose-lose, whether you prefer a more leftist or more centrist approach. That being said, it might be interesting to look at Germany, where Merkel moved the CDU left from a center/right position to the center. This secured the CDU a rather long stretch in power, essentially spelled doom for the center/left SPD, but also gave rise to a more hard-left Die Linke and, worse, an ultra-right AfD, whicht started as a conservative party, but essentially was taken over by neo-nazis.
    - 6y ago
syshum 6y ago
>>despite Biden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform Is that his platform? I did not see much of that. 11 Trillion in new Spending [1], Expansion of the ACA [1], 3.6 Trillion in Tax hikes, The Green New Deal, and Support for the very partisan "Hero's Act" Biden platform is one of seemingly infinite promises to push new government controls into virtually all aspects of our lives.[2] That is not centrism or reconciliation platform, the the Washington Post called his platform "more liberal than that of every past Democratic nominee." The fact that he is not as authoritarian / socialist left as Bernie, Warren or AOC does not make him a centrist nor does that mean is message will resonate with people that value free markets, free minds, and freedom... [1] https://www.manhattan-institute.org/joe-biden-has-11-trillion-spending-plan-can-he-enact-it https://www.manhattan-institute.org/joe-biden-has-11-trillio... [2] https://reason.com/video/2020/11/06/joe-bidens-endless-river-of-debt-and-regulation/ https://reason.com/video/2020/11/06/joe-bidens-endless-river...
- 8note 6y ago
  Where is the abolishment of private healthcare? Universal basic income? Election reform? Centrism is always a relative concept. Just because the right wing has radicalized over the past 30-40 years doesn't mean the left can't also radicalized, moving centrism to different places
tekknik 6y ago
Biden’s position on gun control, combined with Kamala Harris, is what did it for many of the republicans I know.
- regularfry 6y ago
  The history of how gun control came to become such a sharp and reliable wedge issue is well worth understanding. It's a relatively recent thing. Something I've found worth thinking when I hear that, to paraphrase a random sentiment you might hear, "Democrats need to understand that people need to feel secure, that's why gun control matters" is this: who is telling these people that they should be scared?
  - thomastjeffery 6y ago
    One serious look at Feinstein and other's proposed legislation is enough to convince every gun owner I know that Democrats don't know the first thing about guns. We need reform, not absurd threats to ban AR-15's while keeping Mini-14's. Not arbitrary tax stamps and wait times for suppressors and short barrel rifles. I personally haven't seen gun control legislation proposed in America that isn't totally laughable. It's a deep-rooted thorn in the foot of progressive American politics.
    - regularfry 6y ago
      And the underlying problem is that gun owners are populous enough that this objection is a serious political blockage. Why do so many Americans own guns? Who is telling them that this is reasonable, desirable, necessary? In most developed countries, gun control is a political footnote. Why is it different in the US?
      - thomastjeffery 6y ago
        > Who is telling them that this is reasonable, desirable, necessary? Is it unreasonable undesirable or unnecessary? I disagree. Guns are tools. Guns are toys. The overwhelming majority of firearm use is safe and recreational. Gun ownership is not correlated with gun violence[1]. The problem with guns isn't that there are a lot of them. The problem is that they are, in very rare cases, used to do serious harm. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Sta...
mythrwy 6y ago
I think many people are still failing to see the real split. The split is not "Democrat VS Republican". That always was a bit of an artificial construct, at least within my living memory. There would be debates, at the end everyone would shake hands and life went on. Nothing substantially changed in policy. Bush said XX, did some stuff, Obama said XX, did pretty much the same stuff and on it went. But then people got sick of that game. The left wanted real change. Not forced payments to insurance companies for health care while corporations went right on doing what they do. Real action on climate. Real addresses to the problems of generational poverty and race issues instead of a few token figures and some talk. The right also wanted real change. An end to globalist policies. An end to unfettered immigration. And an end to meaningless foreign wars (which the left also should have been in on but for some reason were not so much). Judges that would uphold their religious values. And they managed to elect a president that actually started to do some of this much to the dismay of the old guard of both parties. So now here we are. The Joe Bidens and Mitt Romneys of the world think they can put Humpty Dumpty back together again and it will be back to business as usual, a few drone strikes, some trade deals and big companies growing ever more powerful. But I suspect not this time. If Biden actually is certified and elected I think he will greatly disappoint the left and the more radical wing will become increasingly hostile. Meanwhile the right, believing the election to be stolen by "communists" through voter fraud will become increasingly conspiracy minded. None of this is a recipe for reconciliation. My feeling is we need to move beyond facile political posturing and step back and take a hard look at globalism, at nationalism, at the role of federal governments. We can't deny globalism is here. It's not going away. Capital and information and product and even jobs are going to cross borders. There are many issues we can only solve globally. But if it's not done in a way that protects the livelihoods, dignity, traditions, cultural preferences and aspirational wishes of people there are going to be problems, and probably even bloodshed. People must get most of what they want or at least feel it's possible. The "right" and the "left" as they are commonly understood in the US are not as far apart in this as it first appears. They both feel they are engaged in a struggle against oppression and for human freedom. The alarming part is, in order to maintain order (and of course the system which much chug along) the paranoia about authoritarianism from both sides might be realized soon enough.

abc-xyz 6y ago

It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well.

nobody9999 6y ago
>It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well. It's possible. But the numbers don't bear this out. In every state that was close where Biden won, his margin of victory was less than the number of votes that Jo Jorgensen (the Libertarian candidate) received. That tells me that enough R-types were disgusted enough with Trump that they voted Libertarian for President and R for everyone else. Check out the numbers for yourself[0]. Just click on each state and it will break down the vote totals for each candidate. And in every. single. case. the margin of victory for Biden is less than the number of votes received by Jo Jorgensen. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-election-results-live-map https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-electi...
- syshum 6y ago
  Jo under performed Gary Johnson from 2016, so I do not believe your correlation is very valid In Some States, Like Nevada, the number of people that choose "NONE OF THESE CANDIDATES" for president more or less matches the number of people that voted for Jo... Further an over all Analysis shows there were almost as many Split Biden votes, as there were Split Trump Votes This idea that "3rd party spoils the election" or changes the election has been dis-proven often, as absent the 3rd choice most people that vote 3rd party simply do not vote at all, or choose no one in that particular race (which is an option most people for get, you do not have to pick a person in every race on a ballot, blank is a valid choice)

ZephyrBlu 6y ago

Biden was running as a centrist?! That's news to me.

harimau777 6y ago
Biden's branding during the primaries revolved around not being as extreme as candidates like Sanders and Warren. Then during the election his branding predominantly revolved around healing America's partisan divides. He was definitely running as a centrist.
amanaplanacanal 6y ago
What positions has he taken that you view as extreme?
rbg246 6y ago
I know right, he is definitely on the right in the political spectrum. The left or even centre-left has never been in power in the US and probably never will.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
That's what most of the Republican voters I know said. The GOP has gone so far right that "centrist" is unrecognizable.

davrosthedalek 6y ago

It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum: Down-ballot, the Dems did worse than Biden, and I suspect that the statistics will show a lot of split ballots. Both on foxnews and on WaPo, there were more news about the more leftist actors. Bernie, AOC, etc. The Dems did not manage to show that these are not the mainstream democratic goals. The pictures of rioters, combined with "defund the police" scared a lot of people, and if you start out skeptical, you might not look close enough that this doesn't mean "get rid of the police", but "descope the police, let them do their job, and find other people to do the things which are not their job".

adamsea 6y ago
> It's pretty obvious that the democrats failed to demonstrate that their goals were rather close to the center of the spectrum IMHO this is just something people say to push Democrats to the center and then further and further right ... because the evidence shows that the current Republican party won't support any Democratic policy, basically. These folks we're talking about will not be convinced by anything. It's not an honest argument.
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  If you read closely, you will notice that I do not make an argument that the Democrats should be more centrist, but that their strategy was to be centrist, and that they failed to sell it as such. That leaves to options for the future: Not be so centrist, because you can't sell it anyway, or be centrist, but actually sell it. But being centrist and looking leftist seems like a lose-lose, whether you prefer a more leftist or more centrist approach. That being said, it might be interesting to look at Germany, where Merkel moved the CDU left from a center/right position to the center. This secured the CDU a rather long stretch in power, essentially spelled doom for the center/left SPD, but also gave rise to a more hard-left Die Linke and, worse, an ultra-right AfD, whicht started as a conservative party, but essentially was taken over by neo-nazis.
  - 6y ago

syshum 6y ago

>>despite Biden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform Is that his platform? I did not see much of that. 11 Trillion in new Spending [1], Expansion of the ACA [1], 3.6 Trillion in Tax hikes, The Green New Deal, and Support for the very partisan "Hero's Act" Biden platform is one of seemingly infinite promises to push new government controls into virtually all aspects of our lives.[2] That is not centrism or reconciliation platform, the the Washington Post called his platform "more liberal than that of every past Democratic nominee." The fact that he is not as authoritarian / socialist left as Bernie, Warren or AOC does not make him a centrist nor does that mean is message will resonate with people that value free markets, free minds, and freedom... [1] https://www.manhattan-institute.org/joe-biden-has-11-trillion-spending-plan-can-he-enact-it https://www.manhattan-institute.org/joe-biden-has-11-trillio... [2] https://reason.com/video/2020/11/06/joe-bidens-endless-river-of-debt-and-regulation/ https://reason.com/video/2020/11/06/joe-bidens-endless-river...

8note 6y ago
Where is the abolishment of private healthcare? Universal basic income? Election reform? Centrism is always a relative concept. Just because the right wing has radicalized over the past 30-40 years doesn't mean the left can't also radicalized, moving centrism to different places

tekknik 6y ago

Biden’s position on gun control, combined with Kamala Harris, is what did it for many of the republicans I know.

regularfry 6y ago
The history of how gun control came to become such a sharp and reliable wedge issue is well worth understanding. It's a relatively recent thing. Something I've found worth thinking when I hear that, to paraphrase a random sentiment you might hear, "Democrats need to understand that people need to feel secure, that's why gun control matters" is this: who is telling these people that they should be scared?
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  One serious look at Feinstein and other's proposed legislation is enough to convince every gun owner I know that Democrats don't know the first thing about guns. We need reform, not absurd threats to ban AR-15's while keeping Mini-14's. Not arbitrary tax stamps and wait times for suppressors and short barrel rifles. I personally haven't seen gun control legislation proposed in America that isn't totally laughable. It's a deep-rooted thorn in the foot of progressive American politics.
  - regularfry 6y ago
    And the underlying problem is that gun owners are populous enough that this objection is a serious political blockage. Why do so many Americans own guns? Who is telling them that this is reasonable, desirable, necessary? In most developed countries, gun control is a political footnote. Why is it different in the US?
    - thomastjeffery 6y ago
      > Who is telling them that this is reasonable, desirable, necessary? Is it unreasonable undesirable or unnecessary? I disagree. Guns are tools. Guns are toys. The overwhelming majority of firearm use is safe and recreational. Gun ownership is not correlated with gun violence[1]. The problem with guns isn't that there are a lot of them. The problem is that they are, in very rare cases, used to do serious harm. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Sta...

mythrwy 6y ago

I think many people are still failing to see the real split. The split is not "Democrat VS Republican". That always was a bit of an artificial construct, at least within my living memory. There would be debates, at the end everyone would shake hands and life went on. Nothing substantially changed in policy. Bush said XX, did some stuff, Obama said XX, did pretty much the same stuff and on it went. But then people got sick of that game. The left wanted real change. Not forced payments to insurance companies for health care while corporations went right on doing what they do. Real action on climate. Real addresses to the problems of generational poverty and race issues instead of a few token figures and some talk. The right also wanted real change. An end to globalist policies. An end to unfettered immigration. And an end to meaningless foreign wars (which the left also should have been in on but for some reason were not so much). Judges that would uphold their religious values. And they managed to elect a president that actually started to do some of this much to the dismay of the old guard of both parties. So now here we are. The Joe Bidens and Mitt Romneys of the world think they can put Humpty Dumpty back together again and it will be back to business as usual, a few drone strikes, some trade deals and big companies growing ever more powerful. But I suspect not this time. If Biden actually is certified and elected I think he will greatly disappoint the left and the more radical wing will become increasingly hostile. Meanwhile the right, believing the election to be stolen by "communists" through voter fraud will become increasingly conspiracy minded. None of this is a recipe for reconciliation. My feeling is we need to move beyond facile political posturing and step back and take a hard look at globalism, at nationalism, at the role of federal governments. We can't deny globalism is here. It's not going away. Capital and information and product and even jobs are going to cross borders. There are many issues we can only solve globally. But if it's not done in a way that protects the livelihoods, dignity, traditions, cultural preferences and aspirational wishes of people there are going to be problems, and probably even bloodshed. People must get most of what they want or at least feel it's possible. The "right" and the "left" as they are commonly understood in the US are not as far apart in this as it first appears. They both feel they are engaged in a struggle against oppression and for human freedom. The alarming part is, in order to maintain order (and of course the system which much chug along) the paranoia about authoritarianism from both sides might be realized soon enough.