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I'm glad we got Trump out of the white house. But I'm still skeptical. The growing divide and threat of civil war ( not going to happen btw ) are nothing compa

I'm glad we got Trump out of the white house. But I'm still skeptical. The growing divide and threat of civil war ( not going to happen btw ) are nothing compared to what will happen in the next 50 years of we do not have a green new deal. Climate change, and its little brother over fishing and unchecked exploitation of our environment, is an existential threat to the human race. Bernie took it seriously. Warren took it seriously. I'm not convinced the new establishment takes it seriously. We need radical action YESTERDAY. More business as usual is not going to cut it. Furthermore, the new administration doesn't believe in Medicare for all. They plan to do nothing about the currently broken system which causes 40% of people who are diagnosed with cancer to spend their entire life savings and often go bankrupt as a result of something that is not at all their fault. Democrats down ballot got massacred, well progressive policies like decriminalization of drugs, and raising the minimum wage passed with large margins. I'm glad we won but this was a mess and we're still not getting towards where we actually need to be: preventing the apocalypse

RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago
Preventing the apocalypse is not going to happen with just the US pursuing green tech, so its a moot point. We have to get the rest of the world on board, and that's simply not going to happen because there will always be a country that wants to improve the lives of their citizens, and thereby want to climb up the economic ladder, and as such will seek the advantages to be gleaned from the disproportionately more powerful fossil fuel. Sorry to be such a pessimist, but there's nothing that's going to stop climate change except the free market agreeing to pursue sustainability. Politics has no power here. Its just a bad strategy that puts anyone who pursues green tech at an economic disadvantage, a sort of prisoners dilemma. Anything else is just fantasizing that we live in a non competitive world. My advice: move to a colder state.
- cgrealy 6y ago
  > there's nothing that's going to stop climate change except the free market agreeing to pursue sustainability. That is exactly the attitude that got us into this situation in the first place. The free market will NEVER voluntarily choose compliance costs. The value simply isn't there. The free market is an engine to optimise profit. That's it. All other considerations are secondary. While there is a market niche for "ethical products", that is ultimately (and somewhat ironically) unsustainable without regulation. If I start a business behaving ethically, using renewable energy, paying my employees and suppliers a fair wage, etc... my only hope is that I can attract a niche market that will pay a premium for that. But history has shown us that is simply not the case. Regulation levels the playing field. Otherwise, we would still have child labour, weekend work, dangerous working conditions, etc. As for the argument that other countries will ignore this: 1: other countries AREN'T ignoring this. The US is the one that pulled out of Paris 2: The US is the still the biggest economy in the world. If the US government imposed regulations that all business must act in a sustainable fashion (including the supply chain) the rest of the world would have to follow through.
  - RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago
    > The free market is an engine to optimize profit Agreed. > Regulation levels the playing field. Only for the parties playing on that field. > Otherwise, we would still have child labor, weekend work, dangerous working conditions, etc. We still do, in countries that don't play on that field. > If the US government imposed regulations that all business must act in a sustainable fashion (including the supply chain) the rest of the world would have to follow through. And where exactly is the rest of the world buying its supplies from? Where were the things inside your home, inside your pockets, on your body made? Only the minority of wealthy people buy ethically produced goods. Disobeying the free market creates inefficiencies in supply and demand which are always taken advantage of. You don't fight the free market, its an equation that can't be changed. You forget the black market exists in which regulations by definition have no domain. Are the goods you bought off amazon suddenly in compliance with US regulations just because you as a US citizen bought them? No, not at all, yet you and millions of americans buy these goods. Cheaper energy always means cheaper production costs. In the end its up to the side who puts up the regulations to pay for that inefficiency. And we will most definitely be paying for it one way or another whether its through taxes, job losses, currency devaluation, quality of life, meanwhile someone somewhere will take advantage of lower costs to production and put that carbon into the atmosphere. I'm not in denial of climate change, I just don't believe policy will save us from it. Its like trying to put a fence around a forest fire.
    - cgrealy 6y ago
      > You don't fight the free market, its an equation that can't be changed. Nonsense. Of course it can. Buy any leaded petrol lately? Aerosols with CFCs? Landmines? Why? Because nobody wants those things. The companies that made them liked them because they were more profitable than the alternatives (see also: labour laws, etc), but people just wanted transportation and deodorant. > Cheaper energy always means cheaper production costs. Absolutely, and a capitalist system will force companies to that cheaper energy to compete. That's not a criticism, that's a statement of fact. So how do you fix that? Make renewables cheaper through government investment and make fossil fuels more expensive through taxes, etc. It's not rocket science. That isn't to say it's easy. It's not. It's probably the single greatest challenge humanity has faced. But we cannot simply pray to the invisible hand to save us. It really doesn't care.
SnowProblem 6y ago
Here's a dark thought. If Trump really did win the election legimately, and there really was widespread voter fraud, play out how both sides would react. Consider that Biden has already been declared president-elect by the media. We may be weeks away from civil war and not even realize it. Of course, I think this is a big if, but it's a scary thought.

RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago

Preventing the apocalypse is not going to happen with just the US pursuing green tech, so its a moot point. We have to get the rest of the world on board, and that's simply not going to happen because there will always be a country that wants to improve the lives of their citizens, and thereby want to climb up the economic ladder, and as such will seek the advantages to be gleaned from the disproportionately more powerful fossil fuel. Sorry to be such a pessimist, but there's nothing that's going to stop climate change except the free market agreeing to pursue sustainability. Politics has no power here. Its just a bad strategy that puts anyone who pursues green tech at an economic disadvantage, a sort of prisoners dilemma. Anything else is just fantasizing that we live in a non competitive world. My advice: move to a colder state.

cgrealy 6y ago
> there's nothing that's going to stop climate change except the free market agreeing to pursue sustainability. That is exactly the attitude that got us into this situation in the first place. The free market will NEVER voluntarily choose compliance costs. The value simply isn't there. The free market is an engine to optimise profit. That's it. All other considerations are secondary. While there is a market niche for "ethical products", that is ultimately (and somewhat ironically) unsustainable without regulation. If I start a business behaving ethically, using renewable energy, paying my employees and suppliers a fair wage, etc... my only hope is that I can attract a niche market that will pay a premium for that. But history has shown us that is simply not the case. Regulation levels the playing field. Otherwise, we would still have child labour, weekend work, dangerous working conditions, etc. As for the argument that other countries will ignore this: 1: other countries AREN'T ignoring this. The US is the one that pulled out of Paris 2: The US is the still the biggest economy in the world. If the US government imposed regulations that all business must act in a sustainable fashion (including the supply chain) the rest of the world would have to follow through.
- RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago
  > The free market is an engine to optimize profit Agreed. > Regulation levels the playing field. Only for the parties playing on that field. > Otherwise, we would still have child labor, weekend work, dangerous working conditions, etc. We still do, in countries that don't play on that field. > If the US government imposed regulations that all business must act in a sustainable fashion (including the supply chain) the rest of the world would have to follow through. And where exactly is the rest of the world buying its supplies from? Where were the things inside your home, inside your pockets, on your body made? Only the minority of wealthy people buy ethically produced goods. Disobeying the free market creates inefficiencies in supply and demand which are always taken advantage of. You don't fight the free market, its an equation that can't be changed. You forget the black market exists in which regulations by definition have no domain. Are the goods you bought off amazon suddenly in compliance with US regulations just because you as a US citizen bought them? No, not at all, yet you and millions of americans buy these goods. Cheaper energy always means cheaper production costs. In the end its up to the side who puts up the regulations to pay for that inefficiency. And we will most definitely be paying for it one way or another whether its through taxes, job losses, currency devaluation, quality of life, meanwhile someone somewhere will take advantage of lower costs to production and put that carbon into the atmosphere. I'm not in denial of climate change, I just don't believe policy will save us from it. Its like trying to put a fence around a forest fire.
  - cgrealy 6y ago
    > You don't fight the free market, its an equation that can't be changed. Nonsense. Of course it can. Buy any leaded petrol lately? Aerosols with CFCs? Landmines? Why? Because nobody wants those things. The companies that made them liked them because they were more profitable than the alternatives (see also: labour laws, etc), but people just wanted transportation and deodorant. > Cheaper energy always means cheaper production costs. Absolutely, and a capitalist system will force companies to that cheaper energy to compete. That's not a criticism, that's a statement of fact. So how do you fix that? Make renewables cheaper through government investment and make fossil fuels more expensive through taxes, etc. It's not rocket science. That isn't to say it's easy. It's not. It's probably the single greatest challenge humanity has faced. But we cannot simply pray to the invisible hand to save us. It really doesn't care.

SnowProblem 6y ago

Here's a dark thought. If Trump really did win the election legimately, and there really was widespread voter fraud, play out how both sides would react. Consider that Biden has already been declared president-elect by the media. We may be weeks away from civil war and not even realize it. Of course, I think this is a big if, but it's a scary thought.