4 ms·

Seems like a lot of these problems stem from a failing education system. Teach kids critical thinking and scientific literacy and about media bias. Seems more i

by briga 6y ago

Seems like a lot of these problems stem from a failing education system. Teach kids critical thinking and scientific literacy and about media bias. Seems more important ever to teach kids that they shouldn't believe everything the see at face value. Easier said than done I suppose

ianmobbs 6y ago
Exactly this - but this is why conservatives routinely defund education.
fountainofage 6y ago
I'm very inclined to believe, but I personally know a couple of medical doctors who are 100% into the theories. And I imagine lots of other people also know well-educated individuals with the same beliefs. I don't know if education is enough. People seem to decide at some point what they believe, and then back all evidence into either it supports their beliefs, or the evidence is fake.
- dd36 6y ago
  Doctors have a very narrow area of training.
  - fountainofage 6y ago
    Are you saying we need even more education than what doctors currently attain? Or are you agreeing with my underlying point that education doesn't matter and won't help here?
    - saghm 6y ago
      I think GP is saying that we need _different_ education, not necessarily "more". It could be more if the new stuff was added in, or it could be the same amount if it replaces something else. The total amount of education isn't super relevant, and it's a bit misleading up claim that teaching anything other than what is already part of a medical school curriculum means you're requiring students to learn "more than a doctor". For a more concrete example, I have never gone to graduate school; my education ended after finishing my undergrad. By any reasonable measure, I received "less" education than a doctor, who presumably completed an undergrad like me but also medical school afterwards. However, I almost certainly learned certain things that most doctors didn't in my computer science education, like how a compiler or operating system is written. If instead of those computer science courses I took courses dealing with media literacy and how to recognize bias, I still would have "less" education than a doctor.
  - respondo2134 6y ago
    ...coupled with a wide path of respect and influence. It makes them powerful in both good and bad situations
- presentation 6y ago
  I think the original commenter meant that at no point of your educational career do we teach things like distinguishing facts in the media - and while there is relation to learning about the scientific method as a doctor, it could be made clearer.
  - fountainofage 6y ago
    My point is that my experience has been that assholes are going to be assholes regardless of how much you educate them. We see this now where those with no education and very little wealth are out there saying "Trump isn't hurting the right people." It doesn't matter the level of education someone has in that scenario - they've already decided on an "us vs them" mentality and will believe what they want to justify their actions. There are very well-educated, well-informed, and critically-minded white supremacists - they use that knowledge and intelligence to further their racism. No amount of education will help them. They've already decided they want to hurt other people, and just take all evidence and back it into either "supports my stance of hurting others" or "this is fake." I think we're spending too much time on the pity party of the uneducated. That if they just had the chance of the college dream, they'd open their eyes and want to help others. I think the vast majority have already decided on their tribe, and we as a society need to be aware of this and structure accordingly rather than insult these groups by saying they're just stupid or misinformed. They know exactly what they're doing and are more than happy to achieve their goals because the ends justify the means.
ardy42 6y ago
> Seems like a lot of these problems stem from a failing education system. Teach kids critical thinking and scientific literacy and media bias. Seems more important ever to teach kids that they shouldn't believe everything the see at face value. Easier said than done I suppose No education is perfect. Even if those things are taught (which I'm pretty sure they are already at some level), there will still be loads of people that: 1) didn't pay attention in school, or didn't absorb the lessons; 2) don't have the ability to apply the lessons; 3) forgot the lessons (esp. if they previously spent a lot of time in a sane media environment where the lessons were less necessary); 4) found it too much trouble to apply the lessons consistently, and let their guard down; 5) found the emotional content of the conspiracy was just too tempting; or 6) encountered a evolved conspiracy theory that found a way around their (years old) lessons.
gammarator 6y ago
Here’s a provocative argument that “media literacy” won’t help: https://points.datasociety.net/you-think-you-want-media-literacy-do-you-7cad6af18ec2 https://points.datasociety.net/you-think-you-want-media-lite...

by briga 6y ago

ianmobbs 6y ago

Exactly this - but this is why conservatives routinely defund education.

fountainofage 6y ago

I'm very inclined to believe, but I personally know a couple of medical doctors who are 100% into the theories. And I imagine lots of other people also know well-educated individuals with the same beliefs. I don't know if education is enough. People seem to decide at some point what they believe, and then back all evidence into either it supports their beliefs, or the evidence is fake.

dd36 6y ago
Doctors have a very narrow area of training.
- fountainofage 6y ago
  Are you saying we need even more education than what doctors currently attain? Or are you agreeing with my underlying point that education doesn't matter and won't help here?
  - saghm 6y ago
    I think GP is saying that we need _different_ education, not necessarily "more". It could be more if the new stuff was added in, or it could be the same amount if it replaces something else. The total amount of education isn't super relevant, and it's a bit misleading up claim that teaching anything other than what is already part of a medical school curriculum means you're requiring students to learn "more than a doctor". For a more concrete example, I have never gone to graduate school; my education ended after finishing my undergrad. By any reasonable measure, I received "less" education than a doctor, who presumably completed an undergrad like me but also medical school afterwards. However, I almost certainly learned certain things that most doctors didn't in my computer science education, like how a compiler or operating system is written. If instead of those computer science courses I took courses dealing with media literacy and how to recognize bias, I still would have "less" education than a doctor.
- respondo2134 6y ago
  ...coupled with a wide path of respect and influence. It makes them powerful in both good and bad situations
presentation 6y ago
I think the original commenter meant that at no point of your educational career do we teach things like distinguishing facts in the media - and while there is relation to learning about the scientific method as a doctor, it could be made clearer.
- fountainofage 6y ago
  My point is that my experience has been that assholes are going to be assholes regardless of how much you educate them. We see this now where those with no education and very little wealth are out there saying "Trump isn't hurting the right people." It doesn't matter the level of education someone has in that scenario - they've already decided on an "us vs them" mentality and will believe what they want to justify their actions. There are very well-educated, well-informed, and critically-minded white supremacists - they use that knowledge and intelligence to further their racism. No amount of education will help them. They've already decided they want to hurt other people, and just take all evidence and back it into either "supports my stance of hurting others" or "this is fake." I think we're spending too much time on the pity party of the uneducated. That if they just had the chance of the college dream, they'd open their eyes and want to help others. I think the vast majority have already decided on their tribe, and we as a society need to be aware of this and structure accordingly rather than insult these groups by saying they're just stupid or misinformed. They know exactly what they're doing and are more than happy to achieve their goals because the ends justify the means.

ardy42 6y ago

> Seems like a lot of these problems stem from a failing education system. Teach kids critical thinking and scientific literacy and media bias. Seems more important ever to teach kids that they shouldn't believe everything the see at face value. Easier said than done I suppose No education is perfect. Even if those things are taught (which I'm pretty sure they are already at some level), there will still be loads of people that: 1) didn't pay attention in school, or didn't absorb the lessons; 2) don't have the ability to apply the lessons; 3) forgot the lessons (esp. if they previously spent a lot of time in a sane media environment where the lessons were less necessary); 4) found it too much trouble to apply the lessons consistently, and let their guard down; 5) found the emotional content of the conspiracy was just too tempting; or 6) encountered a evolved conspiracy theory that found a way around their (years old) lessons.

gammarator 6y ago

Here’s a provocative argument that “media literacy” won’t help: https://points.datasociety.net/you-think-you-want-media-literacy-do-you-7cad6af18ec2 https://points.datasociety.net/you-think-you-want-media-lite...