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A voting system needs to be accurate but it also needs to inspire confidence. I think the U.S. failed on the latter point. Let me be clear that I don't think th

A voting system needs to be accurate but it also needs to inspire confidence. I think the U.S. failed on the latter point. Let me be clear that I don't think this affected the outcome, only the confidence in the outcome. Mail-in voting has existed for a long time, but it is being done at a larger scale and in new ways and new places. It was a mistake to do it during such a contentious election. Covid is not a good enough reason: it's easy enough to drop the ballot in a county box so the secretary of state has a chain of custody for all valid ballots. I would actually prefer voter ID as well as people standing there to do a brief check. In addition to preventing fraud, it also helps remind voters if they forgot to sign or something. Also, I think it needs to be said that a lot of people hate Trump. Hate can cause people to do things that they would never imagine doing otherwise, like election fraud. It doesn't need to be a conspiracy... just a lot of individuals doing small stuff (post office employees throwing away likely Trump ballots, etc.). And it doesn't help that the map looked quite red on the day of the election, and that the poll numbers were WAY off, and that the media was rooting for Biden. It all just erodes confidence.

kylestlb 6y ago
have any links to real evidence of widespread fraud that would affect the outcome?
- rjkennedy98 6y ago
  They said the same thing about NSA surveillance before Snowden
  - webkike 6y ago
    And then Snowden provided evidence. What are you getting at here?
- heartbeats 6y ago
  I have many links to evidence that there are real people out there who are convinced that there was election fraud. Whether there actually was any is immaterial; the mere appearance of fraud is bad enough.
  - kylestlb 6y ago
    cool, where are the links? if you want to go on about appearance of wrongdoing, there's been plenty of that the last 4 years. in fact, the president was impeached for it
  - arrrg 6y ago
    People are convinced because Trump tries to convince them using lies and deception. Do you really think the right solution as a reward for those lies is to make it harder to vote?
- chmod600 6y ago
  I specifically said I don't think any of this affected the outcome, but it's also about the confidence. I know many people who do belive there was some manipulation here, and I don't think it's necessary. Not just Trump-die-hards, but people who just think it looks suspicious. We could have done more to avoid those suspicions.
madeofpalk 6y ago
> would actually prefer voter ID as well as people standing there to do a brief check. In addition to preventing fraud, it also helps remind voters if they forgot to sign or something. I’m just unsure why you would want to make it harder for people to vote. I’m honestly uninformed on this, apart from being from Australia which has compulsory voting without voter ID and there’s no issues, but have there actually be scenarios where there’s been fraud instances where showing ID would have resolved things? Has voter ID shown to help more people vote around the world?
- chmod600 6y ago
  I don't see ID as a major barrier to voting, but it adds confidence to the system. I received two ballots, one for me and one for some previous tenant. I marked the other one "return to sender" and put it in the mailbox. But someone else could have pretty easily just voted twice. Maybe that would be caught by some other mechanism? Maybe people just don't do that? But it still adds confidence and I don't really see a downside. Maybe it doesn't need to be a super secure ID, but something would be reassuring.
  - arrrg 6y ago
    If people do that on a large enough scale there will be collisions (i.e. the previous tenant will want to vote themselves, leading to this scheme unraveling real quick and no easy way for you to hide this fraud since you are living at one of the previous addresses of that last tenant.) This cannot influence elections meaningfully and it is nonsensical to state that.
  - js2 6y ago
    > But someone else could have pretty easily just voted twice. No they could not have. Every vote is checked off against the voter registration rolls. The Board of Elections knows when you have voted. You should volunteer for your local board of elections next election. Maybe it will give you more confidence in the system. To vote get excess votes, you have to first commit voter registration fraud or vote for people you know will not vote. And you have to do it in large enough numbers to make a difference. And you have to assume only one party engages in fraud. Also, it’s a felony to commit voter fraud. Voter ID is an attempt to fix a problem that doesn’t exist in the real world. Meanwhile, it suppresses votes. There’s a large amount of “cure” work that’s occurring right now by both parties throughout the country because of votes that weren’t counted due to all sorts of innocuous mistakes people make. It’s thousands of ballots in some places. Meanwhile fraud? There’s no there there. My brother helped to cure ballots in Florida because people forgot a signature. Someone has to go to their house and get them to sign an affidavit that they voted. There’s cure efforts in NC for provisional ballots for things like the DMV failing to forward a registration to the Board of Elections. Or someone who voted in the wrong precinct by accident. These are all valid votes that won’t be counted due to a mistake by the voter unless someone contacts them and helps them to provide the documentation necessary to the BOE to validate their vote. Stop spouting nonsense about fraud and volunteer for your local election board or your party.
js2 6y ago
> I would actually prefer voter ID Unsubstantiated fear mongering erodes confidence. The opposite side of this coin is voter suppression. A vote suppressed is exactly as bad as a fraudulent vote. But, I think I'm in the minority on the voter ID opinion, and I want people to be confident in democracy, so I hope we can come to a compromise. I'll vote for voter ID if you vote for expanding access to voting. Make election day a holiday. Make issuance of voter IDs automatic. Switch to no-excuse absentee ballots everywhere. Expand early voting options. p.s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_St... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_St... Suppression has and continues to be an actual problem. Even in just this election: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-felon-voting-rights-pay-fines-fees/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-felon-voting-rights-pay... Late edit: Downvotes. Hysterical. Wonder if it’s the vote suppression advocates or the folks who disagree with voter ID. No fans of compromise?
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  I've always wanted strong voter verification/ID but also massive voter turnout efforts. I haven't found many people with a similar take. > I'll vote for voter ID if you vote for expanding access to voting. Make election day a holiday. Make issuance of voter IDs automatic. Switch to no-excuse absentee ballots everywhere. Expand early voting options. I support all of this. And let's also make sure people who are voting are eligible to do so.

kylestlb 6y ago

have any links to real evidence of widespread fraud that would affect the outcome?

rjkennedy98 6y ago
They said the same thing about NSA surveillance before Snowden
- webkike 6y ago
  And then Snowden provided evidence. What are you getting at here?
heartbeats 6y ago
I have many links to evidence that there are real people out there who are convinced that there was election fraud. Whether there actually was any is immaterial; the mere appearance of fraud is bad enough.
- kylestlb 6y ago
  cool, where are the links? if you want to go on about appearance of wrongdoing, there's been plenty of that the last 4 years. in fact, the president was impeached for it
- arrrg 6y ago
  People are convinced because Trump tries to convince them using lies and deception. Do you really think the right solution as a reward for those lies is to make it harder to vote?
chmod600 6y ago
I specifically said I don't think any of this affected the outcome, but it's also about the confidence. I know many people who do belive there was some manipulation here, and I don't think it's necessary. Not just Trump-die-hards, but people who just think it looks suspicious. We could have done more to avoid those suspicions.

madeofpalk 6y ago

> would actually prefer voter ID as well as people standing there to do a brief check. In addition to preventing fraud, it also helps remind voters if they forgot to sign or something. I’m just unsure why you would want to make it harder for people to vote. I’m honestly uninformed on this, apart from being from Australia which has compulsory voting without voter ID and there’s no issues, but have there actually be scenarios where there’s been fraud instances where showing ID would have resolved things? Has voter ID shown to help more people vote around the world?

chmod600 6y ago
I don't see ID as a major barrier to voting, but it adds confidence to the system. I received two ballots, one for me and one for some previous tenant. I marked the other one "return to sender" and put it in the mailbox. But someone else could have pretty easily just voted twice. Maybe that would be caught by some other mechanism? Maybe people just don't do that? But it still adds confidence and I don't really see a downside. Maybe it doesn't need to be a super secure ID, but something would be reassuring.
- arrrg 6y ago
  If people do that on a large enough scale there will be collisions (i.e. the previous tenant will want to vote themselves, leading to this scheme unraveling real quick and no easy way for you to hide this fraud since you are living at one of the previous addresses of that last tenant.) This cannot influence elections meaningfully and it is nonsensical to state that.
- js2 6y ago
  > But someone else could have pretty easily just voted twice. No they could not have. Every vote is checked off against the voter registration rolls. The Board of Elections knows when you have voted. You should volunteer for your local board of elections next election. Maybe it will give you more confidence in the system. To vote get excess votes, you have to first commit voter registration fraud or vote for people you know will not vote. And you have to do it in large enough numbers to make a difference. And you have to assume only one party engages in fraud. Also, it’s a felony to commit voter fraud. Voter ID is an attempt to fix a problem that doesn’t exist in the real world. Meanwhile, it suppresses votes. There’s a large amount of “cure” work that’s occurring right now by both parties throughout the country because of votes that weren’t counted due to all sorts of innocuous mistakes people make. It’s thousands of ballots in some places. Meanwhile fraud? There’s no there there. My brother helped to cure ballots in Florida because people forgot a signature. Someone has to go to their house and get them to sign an affidavit that they voted. There’s cure efforts in NC for provisional ballots for things like the DMV failing to forward a registration to the Board of Elections. Or someone who voted in the wrong precinct by accident. These are all valid votes that won’t be counted due to a mistake by the voter unless someone contacts them and helps them to provide the documentation necessary to the BOE to validate their vote. Stop spouting nonsense about fraud and volunteer for your local election board or your party.

js2 6y ago

> I would actually prefer voter ID Unsubstantiated fear mongering erodes confidence. The opposite side of this coin is voter suppression. A vote suppressed is exactly as bad as a fraudulent vote. But, I think I'm in the minority on the voter ID opinion, and I want people to be confident in democracy, so I hope we can come to a compromise. I'll vote for voter ID if you vote for expanding access to voting. Make election day a holiday. Make issuance of voter IDs automatic. Switch to no-excuse absentee ballots everywhere. Expand early voting options. p.s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_St... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_St... Suppression has and continues to be an actual problem. Even in just this election: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-felon-voting-rights-pay-fines-fees/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-felon-voting-rights-pay... Late edit: Downvotes. Hysterical. Wonder if it’s the vote suppression advocates or the folks who disagree with voter ID. No fans of compromise?

ciarannolan 6y ago
I've always wanted strong voter verification/ID but also massive voter turnout efforts. I haven't found many people with a similar take. > I'll vote for voter ID if you vote for expanding access to voting. Make election day a holiday. Make issuance of voter IDs automatic. Switch to no-excuse absentee ballots everywhere. Expand early voting options. I support all of this. And let's also make sure people who are voting are eligible to do so.