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This just doesn't happen. This has been a cause celebre of one party in the use for more than a decade and they have found on the order of a dozen proven exampl

This just doesn't happen. This has been a cause celebre of one party in the use for more than a decade and they have found on the order of a dozen proven examples of voter fraud. https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pdf https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/B... has hard data. The problem, which doesn't require citation as it has been in the news for weeks, is partisan voter suppression, disenfranchisement (DC, Puerto Rico, Guam), and gerrymandering. Every single thing you have suggested has been investigated and have found something on the order of 1* 10^-4 % rates of occurrence. To remind everyone, there was a lawsuit to disenfranchise over 100,000 voters in Texas because of disagreement in how their ballots were submitted. Not recounted, not rechecked. Summarily tossed out. > 1000 times more people would have been effected by this one incident than there were provable instances of voter fraud (most of which was based on confusion by elderly). Limited voting hours, closures of voting stations so common they are accepted now but they are outrageous. This is leaving aside the well documented actions of DeJoy during his time with the USPS. I would also like to see an investigation with subpoena of communications of of the company that caused delays in the printing/mailing of PA absentee ballots https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/politics/elections/cleveland-company-midwest-direct-called-out-by-the-new-york-times-after-delays-in-printing-of-absentee-ballots-and-questions-of-bias/95-4799e934-3bb1-4021-9e65-76725faeabb4 https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/politics/elections/clevela... and tracing the threatening robocall campaign in swing states: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/03/robocall-election-day/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/03/robocal... The US doesn't have a voting integrity issue, it has a voting suppression issue. edit: just another example of the egregious attempts at disenfranchising voters: https://ktar.com/story/3681236/elections-officials-lawyer-calls-arizona-sharpie-lawsuit-remedies-unworkable/ https://ktar.com/story/3681236/elections-officials-lawyer-ca...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
charliemil4 6y ago
> The US doesn't have a voting integrity issue, it has a voting suppression issue. While I whole heartedly agree, I’m concerned how we arrived here. There have been no new additional controls put in place to ensure a dramatic shift in the voter culture (from majority in person to mail in), did not expose vulnerabilities previously unused.
- jpgvm 6y ago
  The amount of votes submitted via a given method hasn't changed that methods vulnerability. Given how much money is invested into elections to propel a candidate to victory you can be almost guaranteed that any weakness that could have been exploited has likely already been identified, exploited and patched or is sufficiently difficult prove (i.e it's not ballot based) as to be continue to be used. i.e the ballot counting system is like iOS and a reliable way of getting fraudualent ballots counted is an iOS sandbox 0day. It's so insanely valuable that everyone is hunting for it and huge resources are deployed to protect it. On the other hand other attacks like voter suppression, propaganda, social media manipulation are sufficiently hard to prove or patch they continue to be used.
  - charliemil4 6y ago
    Interesting frame -- I see your point. Very quickly, I'm not speaking to the Ballot Counting System - I'm speaking to the Ballot Request System. The Request requires information that could be obtained from an individual and rerouted to a centralized operation to fill in the ballot for the person. It is akin to what happens in some states where some folks are bussed to the polls and given a ballot pre-filled by a trusted member in their community and told to follow the ballot template and we will all go get dinner afterward. However, in the case of the mail in ballot, the physical voter is no longer required, leveraging the efforts of one person beyond the previous systems limitations: i.e. bus size, trip time, etc. ^ Real life example of the previous exploit -- that is legal if done correctly. Back to the point: the BRS had an implicit control in place previously... as in, if we see a ton of mail in requests in one location, we should probably check that out. Now that control is invalidated because of the pandemic... thus removing an implicit control without recreating a control to achieve parity (the recreated control for me is the queries I laid out above).
    - jpgvm 6y ago
      I am not seeing how the request system is vulnerable. As I understand it there is a register of absentee voters, ballots are generated (sometimes with privacy sleeves/envelopes etc) and printed with barcodes that tie ballots back to a specific voter ID up until the point that information is separated for counting. Given knowledge of how that system works and controls put around it I doubt any such vulnerabilities could exist that could be found by statistical analysis that isn't already being done... I also think you missed the point of my last sentence which is that you could consider the actual ballot system a lot like AES or any other cryto system you might be familiar with. Cracking the crypto system is stupidly hard because a ton of time was invested making that so. Instead attacking the stuff -around- the crypto system is likely to prove much more fruitful. i.e social engineering, side channel attacks In the same way the attacks I listed above elicit the desired effect (a certain candidate having an unfair advantage) but without attacking the actual ballot system itself (which is likely far too difficult). Essentially it's a case of lower hanging fruit, you don't need voter fraud to "steal" an election.
insickness 6y ago
Right, so the media can crow for four years about Russia, Russia, Russia having overturned the election but a few days of ensuring that ballots are legitimate is to be dismissed without warrant? Fuck outta here.
- throwaway5752 6y ago
  One involves the media and free speech, while the other involves the state and federal government fairly conducting an election. They are completely unrelated.
- lwansbrough 6y ago
  Not saying we can’t verify, but the idea that a Russian op would be focused on getting Biden elected is hilarious.
  - insickness 6y ago
    Any more than getting Trump elected? Fuck off

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

charliemil4 6y ago

> The US doesn't have a voting integrity issue, it has a voting suppression issue. While I whole heartedly agree, I’m concerned how we arrived here. There have been no new additional controls put in place to ensure a dramatic shift in the voter culture (from majority in person to mail in), did not expose vulnerabilities previously unused.

jpgvm 6y ago
The amount of votes submitted via a given method hasn't changed that methods vulnerability. Given how much money is invested into elections to propel a candidate to victory you can be almost guaranteed that any weakness that could have been exploited has likely already been identified, exploited and patched or is sufficiently difficult prove (i.e it's not ballot based) as to be continue to be used. i.e the ballot counting system is like iOS and a reliable way of getting fraudualent ballots counted is an iOS sandbox 0day. It's so insanely valuable that everyone is hunting for it and huge resources are deployed to protect it. On the other hand other attacks like voter suppression, propaganda, social media manipulation are sufficiently hard to prove or patch they continue to be used.
- charliemil4 6y ago
  Interesting frame -- I see your point. Very quickly, I'm not speaking to the Ballot Counting System - I'm speaking to the Ballot Request System. The Request requires information that could be obtained from an individual and rerouted to a centralized operation to fill in the ballot for the person. It is akin to what happens in some states where some folks are bussed to the polls and given a ballot pre-filled by a trusted member in their community and told to follow the ballot template and we will all go get dinner afterward. However, in the case of the mail in ballot, the physical voter is no longer required, leveraging the efforts of one person beyond the previous systems limitations: i.e. bus size, trip time, etc. ^ Real life example of the previous exploit -- that is legal if done correctly. Back to the point: the BRS had an implicit control in place previously... as in, if we see a ton of mail in requests in one location, we should probably check that out. Now that control is invalidated because of the pandemic... thus removing an implicit control without recreating a control to achieve parity (the recreated control for me is the queries I laid out above).
  - jpgvm 6y ago
    I am not seeing how the request system is vulnerable. As I understand it there is a register of absentee voters, ballots are generated (sometimes with privacy sleeves/envelopes etc) and printed with barcodes that tie ballots back to a specific voter ID up until the point that information is separated for counting. Given knowledge of how that system works and controls put around it I doubt any such vulnerabilities could exist that could be found by statistical analysis that isn't already being done... I also think you missed the point of my last sentence which is that you could consider the actual ballot system a lot like AES or any other cryto system you might be familiar with. Cracking the crypto system is stupidly hard because a ton of time was invested making that so. Instead attacking the stuff -around- the crypto system is likely to prove much more fruitful. i.e social engineering, side channel attacks In the same way the attacks I listed above elicit the desired effect (a certain candidate having an unfair advantage) but without attacking the actual ballot system itself (which is likely far too difficult). Essentially it's a case of lower hanging fruit, you don't need voter fraud to "steal" an election.

insickness 6y ago

Right, so the media can crow for four years about Russia, Russia, Russia having overturned the election but a few days of ensuring that ballots are legitimate is to be dismissed without warrant? Fuck outta here.

throwaway5752 6y ago
One involves the media and free speech, while the other involves the state and federal government fairly conducting an election. They are completely unrelated.
lwansbrough 6y ago
Not saying we can’t verify, but the idea that a Russian op would be focused on getting Biden elected is hilarious.
- insickness 6y ago
  Any more than getting Trump elected? Fuck off