6 ms·

But what gives Twitter the power to dictate what is right and what is wrong?

dbt00 6y ago
If he doesn't like it Trump can start his own site where he can say whatever he wants. There's no reason Twitter can't moderate his posts however they see fit, and in fact his position as elected official shielded him from most normal consequences of his behavior. Consider how judges around the country have responded to his campaign's legal filings, it's not like Twitter was out on a limb here.
- hintymad 6y ago
  That I totally agree. Twitter is a private company, after all. In the meantime, Twitter is editorializing, and they should not enjoy Section 230.
  - geofft 6y ago
    What's an example in your mind of a case where someone can remove content and retain Section 230 immunity?
    - RonanTheGrey 6y ago
      Illegal content, in however the courts have agreed what 'illegal' means. Also spam, to what a reasonable person would consider spam -- and a political opinion isn't spam.
    - afiori 6y ago
      removing is not editorializing. Editorializing is twitter reading the tweet, deciding whether it is true or false, and then showing their decision to the end user together with the tweet. It is somewhat similar to choosing a title for a article, even if you leave the content unchanged you can significantly change the message or the effect by choosing an appropriate title. In this context twitter is not simply recommending accounts you might like, or refusing to deliver tweets, they are actually engaging with the speech of the user. As an analogy consider someone that retweets and article discussing some crimes. this person post a link and says: "I can't believe Person A is actually a murderer", in this case regardless of the article content the poster is exposed to a potential lawsuit in case Person A can prove its innocence. Twitter is closer to this example that to simply choosing to remove content. (specifically this does not apply to the removed trump tweets)
      - eertami 6y ago
        >Editorializing is twitter reading the tweet, deciding whether it is true or false, and then showing their decision to the end user together with the tweet. Nope, that is simply not what editorializing means, in any sense of the word. Twitter stating a categorically true fact or linking to a resource that debunks factually incorrect statements is not editorializing because they are not giving an opinion. They are adding context with verifiable truths. Which, again, not editorializing because stating a truth is not an opinion. I'm sure you can dream up all sorts of hypotheticals that makes this sound problematic, such as implying twitter are the ones deciding something is true or false. They don't need to decide that, they just need to recognise a statement as false and then add clarification. If Trump's tweets had any kind of ambiguity then maybe what you say has credence, but that isn't the reality of the situation.
        afiori 6y ago
        Prepending a warning with twitter decision is editorializing. The fact that they _intend_ to state objective truth is not relevant. I my example so did the user that shared an article on a murder. Now, I believe twitter was careful enough not to do anything too stupid, and we all can imagine that Trump's tweet might have been quite extreme. But fact checking in-place is editorializing.
  - cma 6y ago
    All of these networks and forums would be >99.9999% spam if they couldn't do editorial discretion. And they have almost all long taken down anti-Semitic posts, etc. so they don't turn into a cesspool of hate.
  - tzs 6y ago
    Section 230 does not make any difference in a case like this. What section 230 protects them from is failing to take down harmful things. For taking down harmful things, they are just as liable under 230 as they would have been before 230, namely not liable.
GavinMcG 6y ago
Well they have the platform, so they have the power. But more substantively: by applying universal norms such as "lying is wrong" they don't have to make moral judgments, just factual evaluations.
- RonanTheGrey 6y ago
  What if the truth of a statement takes 6 months to suss out? Wouldn't practicality dictate we err on the side of caution, meaning the statement is allowed before it's blocked? Because the alternative situation is, something that NEEDS to get out never does only because it takes so long to prove.
squidfish 6y ago
They didn't dictate what was "right and what was wrong". The put disclaimers on objectively factually false statements.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  They did this with Palestinian tweets. Are you okay with that too?
  - RonanTheGrey 6y ago
    They won't answer.
    - justinzollars 6y ago
      Censorship cuts both ways.
- xaedes 6y ago
  I don't really understand why people think twitter posts would contain "facts" or "truth" at all... Imho they are all just opinions(edit: , and/or statements used to influence).
  - hintymad 6y ago
    Yup. And censoring opinions from a specific group should be considered as editorializing.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
It wasn't right/wrong, it was true/false. There's a case to be made that Twitter has taken on some of the old role of the press by calling out obviously factually incorrect statements. I'm all for this. But I'd like to see it formalised in law with criminal penalties for anyone, in any position of public influence, who wilfully tries to mislead the public.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  What is true and false? We do not live in a binary world. There are nuances. Facebook recently flagged Palestinian speech. Are Palestinians true/false to object to their position in the world?
  - adamsea 6y ago
    The specific example of Trumps behavior in question is objectively false. Lets not talk about two different situations at the same time. It is perfectly possible to make an appropriate decision and then an inappropriate one; one does not necessarily obviate the other.
    - justinzollars 6y ago
      Censorship is the issue at hand. It cuts both ways and if you advocate for it now, it will certainly bite you in the future.
      - brynjolf 6y ago
        Trump wasn't censored though? So what are you discussing?
Karupan 6y ago
This is Twitter as a company and the people running it choosing what they feel is right or wrong. We can endlessly argue if they should do it, but it is well within their rights to do so anyway.
- RonanTheGrey 6y ago
  100% agree with that. "They were so busy asking if they could they didn't stop to question if they should."
deanCommie 6y ago
Literally the constitution. It's part of their freedom of expression.
skuhn 6y ago
Freedom of speech must have limits. The classic analogy is that a person shouldn't be allowed to shout "FIRE" and thereby cause panic in a crowded theater, when there is no such fire. The right of the one person to (falsely) speak is outweighed by the right of the many people present to their own safety. Trump saying "I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!" [1] is clearly equivalent to shouting "FIRE". He has not won the election, he does not have more popular votes or more electoral college votes, and he has presented no proof or substantive argument to contradict this narrative. That Twitter should put a warning label on statements from powerful people that are objectively false is really the least they can do. To let Trump spread lies without any comment before now has been wholly irresponsible. I wish that Twitter didn't provide a platform for misinformation in the first place. [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325099845045071873 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/13250998450450718...
- RonanTheGrey 6y ago
  The limits you're talking about have always been enforced by governments because, ya know, the people agreed those were reasonable. We actually get a say in what our standards of speech actually are. Not an unelected king who rules by fiat on a platform used by 10's or hundreds of millions of people.
- shkkmo 6y ago
  I'd like to point out that "shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a rhetorical analogy that was invented to justify the suppression of legitimate political speech. (Namely to silence opposition to the draft.)
  - skuhn 6y ago
    That's true, and was obviously an overreach in 1919. That it was dialed back in 1969 to limit banning speech likely to incite a riot is much more reasonable to my mind.
    - LexGray 6y ago
      I do not think it is unreasonable to assume Trump stating he had won was actually an attempt to incite riots and looting. He seems to really enjoy chaos. Into the history books by hook or crook.
LexGray 6y ago
I wish Hacker News would do the same... Any lie in the name of "sarcasm" which is not explicitly labeled such should be flagged. There is too much of a chance of translation issues not making it clear that the lie is intended for "humor".
- DenisM 6y ago
  You can flag sarcasm or admonish the joker by pointing out the rules against snark. I often do that as a matter of public service.
mkolodny 6y ago
Unfortunately Twitter's fact checking is the best solution we have so far. If you have a better idea, go build it :)

If he doesn't like it Trump can start his own site where he can say whatever he wants. There's no reason Twitter can't moderate his posts however they see fit, and in fact his position as elected official shielded him from most normal consequences of his behavior. Consider how judges around the country have responded to his campaign's legal filings, it's not like Twitter was out on a limb here.

hintymad 6y ago
That I totally agree. Twitter is a private company, after all. In the meantime, Twitter is editorializing, and they should not enjoy Section 230.
- geofft 6y ago
  What's an example in your mind of a case where someone can remove content and retain Section 230 immunity?
  - RonanTheGrey 6y ago
    Illegal content, in however the courts have agreed what 'illegal' means. Also spam, to what a reasonable person would consider spam -- and a political opinion isn't spam.
  - afiori 6y ago
    removing is not editorializing. Editorializing is twitter reading the tweet, deciding whether it is true or false, and then showing their decision to the end user together with the tweet. It is somewhat similar to choosing a title for a article, even if you leave the content unchanged you can significantly change the message or the effect by choosing an appropriate title. In this context twitter is not simply recommending accounts you might like, or refusing to deliver tweets, they are actually engaging with the speech of the user. As an analogy consider someone that retweets and article discussing some crimes. this person post a link and says: "I can't believe Person A is actually a murderer", in this case regardless of the article content the poster is exposed to a potential lawsuit in case Person A can prove its innocence. Twitter is closer to this example that to simply choosing to remove content. (specifically this does not apply to the removed trump tweets)
    - eertami 6y ago
      >Editorializing is twitter reading the tweet, deciding whether it is true or false, and then showing their decision to the end user together with the tweet. Nope, that is simply not what editorializing means, in any sense of the word. Twitter stating a categorically true fact or linking to a resource that debunks factually incorrect statements is not editorializing because they are not giving an opinion. They are adding context with verifiable truths. Which, again, not editorializing because stating a truth is not an opinion. I'm sure you can dream up all sorts of hypotheticals that makes this sound problematic, such as implying twitter are the ones deciding something is true or false. They don't need to decide that, they just need to recognise a statement as false and then add clarification. If Trump's tweets had any kind of ambiguity then maybe what you say has credence, but that isn't the reality of the situation.
      - afiori 6y ago
        Prepending a warning with twitter decision is editorializing. The fact that they _intend_ to state objective truth is not relevant. I my example so did the user that shared an article on a murder. Now, I believe twitter was careful enough not to do anything too stupid, and we all can imagine that Trump's tweet might have been quite extreme. But fact checking in-place is editorializing.
- cma 6y ago
  All of these networks and forums would be >99.9999% spam if they couldn't do editorial discretion. And they have almost all long taken down anti-Semitic posts, etc. so they don't turn into a cesspool of hate.
- tzs 6y ago
  Section 230 does not make any difference in a case like this. What section 230 protects them from is failing to take down harmful things. For taking down harmful things, they are just as liable under 230 as they would have been before 230, namely not liable.

GavinMcG 6y ago

Well they have the platform, so they have the power. But more substantively: by applying universal norms such as "lying is wrong" they don't have to make moral judgments, just factual evaluations.

RonanTheGrey 6y ago
What if the truth of a statement takes 6 months to suss out? Wouldn't practicality dictate we err on the side of caution, meaning the statement is allowed before it's blocked? Because the alternative situation is, something that NEEDS to get out never does only because it takes so long to prove.

squidfish 6y ago

They didn't dictate what was "right and what was wrong". The put disclaimers on objectively factually false statements.

justinzollars 6y ago
They did this with Palestinian tweets. Are you okay with that too?
- RonanTheGrey 6y ago
  They won't answer.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    Censorship cuts both ways.
xaedes 6y ago
I don't really understand why people think twitter posts would contain "facts" or "truth" at all... Imho they are all just opinions(edit: , and/or statements used to influence).
- hintymad 6y ago
  Yup. And censoring opinions from a specific group should be considered as editorializing.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

It wasn't right/wrong, it was true/false. There's a case to be made that Twitter has taken on some of the old role of the press by calling out obviously factually incorrect statements. I'm all for this. But I'd like to see it formalised in law with criminal penalties for anyone, in any position of public influence, who wilfully tries to mislead the public.

justinzollars 6y ago
What is true and false? We do not live in a binary world. There are nuances. Facebook recently flagged Palestinian speech. Are Palestinians true/false to object to their position in the world?
- adamsea 6y ago
  The specific example of Trumps behavior in question is objectively false. Lets not talk about two different situations at the same time. It is perfectly possible to make an appropriate decision and then an inappropriate one; one does not necessarily obviate the other.
  - justinzollars 6y ago
    Censorship is the issue at hand. It cuts both ways and if you advocate for it now, it will certainly bite you in the future.
    - brynjolf 6y ago
      Trump wasn't censored though? So what are you discussing?

Karupan 6y ago

This is Twitter as a company and the people running it choosing what they feel is right or wrong. We can endlessly argue if they should do it, but it is well within their rights to do so anyway.

RonanTheGrey 6y ago
100% agree with that. "They were so busy asking if they could they didn't stop to question if they should."

deanCommie 6y ago

Literally the constitution. It's part of their freedom of expression.

skuhn 6y ago

Freedom of speech must have limits. The classic analogy is that a person shouldn't be allowed to shout "FIRE" and thereby cause panic in a crowded theater, when there is no such fire. The right of the one person to (falsely) speak is outweighed by the right of the many people present to their own safety. Trump saying "I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!" [1] is clearly equivalent to shouting "FIRE". He has not won the election, he does not have more popular votes or more electoral college votes, and he has presented no proof or substantive argument to contradict this narrative. That Twitter should put a warning label on statements from powerful people that are objectively false is really the least they can do. To let Trump spread lies without any comment before now has been wholly irresponsible. I wish that Twitter didn't provide a platform for misinformation in the first place. [1] https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325099845045071873 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/13250998450450718...

RonanTheGrey 6y ago
The limits you're talking about have always been enforced by governments because, ya know, the people agreed those were reasonable. We actually get a say in what our standards of speech actually are. Not an unelected king who rules by fiat on a platform used by 10's or hundreds of millions of people.
shkkmo 6y ago
I'd like to point out that "shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a rhetorical analogy that was invented to justify the suppression of legitimate political speech. (Namely to silence opposition to the draft.)
- skuhn 6y ago
  That's true, and was obviously an overreach in 1919. That it was dialed back in 1969 to limit banning speech likely to incite a riot is much more reasonable to my mind.
  - LexGray 6y ago
    I do not think it is unreasonable to assume Trump stating he had won was actually an attempt to incite riots and looting. He seems to really enjoy chaos. Into the history books by hook or crook.

LexGray 6y ago

I wish Hacker News would do the same... Any lie in the name of "sarcasm" which is not explicitly labeled such should be flagged. There is too much of a chance of translation issues not making it clear that the lie is intended for "humor".

DenisM 6y ago
You can flag sarcasm or admonish the joker by pointing out the rules against snark. I often do that as a matter of public service.

mkolodny 6y ago

Unfortunately Twitter's fact checking is the best solution we have so far. If you have a better idea, go build it :)