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Just because 50% agree on something doesn't mean it's voluntary. If you vote and everyone volunteers to do it that's fine, if you have to point a gun at them a

Just because 50% agree on something doesn't mean it's voluntary. If you vote and everyone volunteers to do it that's fine, if you have to point a gun at them and threaten them with jail - then it's not voluntary. Yes, many large scale innovations happen due to government funding - I explicitly called that out. I'm saying that there are tons more innovations than just those. The trick for innovation is at scale is getting it to the commercial market. There's a reason the government prefers commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) vs custom tech. Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
The idea that 'free markets' are entirely voluntary is a complete fantasy - tell me, when mobile operators were selling everyone's location, how many people volunteered for that? [1] And what are they meant to do about it in a 'free market' where there is literally no other option? I consent to having a mobile phone in the same way I consent to living in a country - the alternative is living like a caveman in the woods. How do free markets, without anyone being threatened with jailtime, deal with monopolies and market manipulation - say all cable / internet providers just blocking Netflix, or Apple/Google making a secret agreement on wage suppressions [2] And if you agree that free markets need regulation, and that regulation greatly affects who becomes winners and losers, then you are back where you started -> how many people have agreed to that. 1 - https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-selling-your-location-data/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIr678-Mg_KsbJ5evz1HkuDB_j-O5y3Td6rdAqHuTlAt4HM17ipBiKc5W5Zm8RGO6MiVLhXf0_5P96qVD689Mxe7ooJJhaUELeeE06RwX_ju_4SdTLk9G227tinOU6RYbHo5FJeJZLeb2r5AB5JIsm-JOaQAFFYAtOEhN4EWB6Xc https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-sel... 2 - https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage... "Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science." Could you give an example? To me this sounds logically impossible - one has to understand the scientific principles before you can innovate on them.
- dantheman 6y ago
  Lenses and mirror construction led the field of optics. Which then opened up microscopes and telelcoses, etc. Here's a paper that addresses the simple model (science->tech): https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/files/sciencetechnology.pdf https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/file... Another example would be bridge and building construction were around long before the we understood physics. In fact, through experimentation we gather examples and try to understand how to build better arches, etc and eventually learn to understand why what works.
- deepnotderp 6y ago
  > Could you give an example? To me this sounds logically impossible - one has to understand the scientific principles before you can innovate on them. Steam engine --> thermodynamics

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

The idea that 'free markets' are entirely voluntary is a complete fantasy - tell me, when mobile operators were selling everyone's location, how many people volunteered for that? [1] And what are they meant to do about it in a 'free market' where there is literally no other option? I consent to having a mobile phone in the same way I consent to living in a country - the alternative is living like a caveman in the woods. How do free markets, without anyone being threatened with jailtime, deal with monopolies and market manipulation - say all cable / internet providers just blocking Netflix, or Apple/Google making a secret agreement on wage suppressions [2] And if you agree that free markets need regulation, and that regulation greatly affects who becomes winners and losers, then you are back where you started -> how many people have agreed to that. 1 - https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-selling-your-location-data/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIr678-Mg_KsbJ5evz1HkuDB_j-O5y3Td6rdAqHuTlAt4HM17ipBiKc5W5Zm8RGO6MiVLhXf0_5P96qVD689Mxe7ooJJhaUELeeE06RwX_ju_4SdTLk9G227tinOU6RYbHo5FJeJZLeb2r5AB5JIsm-JOaQAFFYAtOEhN4EWB6Xc https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-sel... 2 - https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage... "Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science." Could you give an example? To me this sounds logically impossible - one has to understand the scientific principles before you can innovate on them.

dantheman 6y ago
Lenses and mirror construction led the field of optics. Which then opened up microscopes and telelcoses, etc. Here's a paper that addresses the simple model (science->tech): https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/files/sciencetechnology.pdf https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/file... Another example would be bridge and building construction were around long before the we understood physics. In fact, through experimentation we gather examples and try to understand how to build better arches, etc and eventually learn to understand why what works.
deepnotderp 6y ago
> Could you give an example? To me this sounds logically impossible - one has to understand the scientific principles before you can innovate on them. Steam engine --> thermodynamics