6 ms·

Free markets are people voluntarily interacting and have driven almost all technological development throughout history. At the frontier, sometimes the governm

Free markets are people voluntarily interacting and have driven almost all technological development throughout history. At the frontier, sometimes the government spends money on things where the risk is too high or the payoff too small in short term. But look at all the innovation around you - how much of that is directly government funded/directed?

wazoox 6y ago
Almost all of it. Rockets, computers, internet, almost everything of any significance has been bootstrapped by governments. Particularly in the US, government spending has been the root of all innovation since forever. The legend of SV garages startup is just that, a legend. The Valley started up thanks to a huge influx of government (mostly military) money around WWII. See the very interesting "secret history of Silicon Valley", digest here: https://unherd.com/2019/04/the-secret-history-of-silicon-valley/ https://unherd.com/2019/04/the-secret-history-of-silicon-val...
- dantheman 6y ago
  I completely agree - many early technologies are bootstrapped / funded by the government. There is no argument there, but once the initial prototype is complete - it is almost always better for progress for it to move toward commercialization and that is where rapid innovation takes place.
  - alexashka 6y ago
    > it is almost always better for progress for it to move toward commercialization and that is where rapid innovation takes place. In what context? A capitalist society that's not at war, with limited crime/corruption, with established trade routes where most people are literate and a banking system that's willing to give out loans? If in that specific context, then probably yes. Do you see how that is an extremely narrow set of circumstances that's subject to change? This idea of government = less efficient, markets = efficient, is paid for propaganda by American billionaires that's been well documented. I forget the name of the book that goes through this in detail. It is not to say government = more efficient, markets = less efficient. The world is not that simple and anyone trying to make it out to be, is selling you an ideology that benefits them - check to see if it benefits you to believe in ideas that have insufficient empirical evidence to justify them.
- idoh 6y ago
  This really overstates the case. Government-funded R&D programs only really kicked off after the Manhattan Project. There was a lot of innovation before that, like the entirety of the industrial revolution.
  - opnitro 6y ago
    Indeed many great innovations, like "have the Pinkertons shoot anyone that tries to strike".
- deepnotderp 6y ago
  That's overstating it a bit. The first liquid fueled rocket for example, was created entirely privately by Robert Goddard. And regarding SV, the Route 128 area received even more government investment. The book Regional Advantage delves into this.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
"people voluntarily interacting" A referendum falls under that description too. "how much of that is directly government funded/directed" Basically all fundamental research is government funded, from space exploration to study of the atom. Then publically funded scientists have published reseach papers, after the scientific journals earned their money without giving a dime to original authors. Then you might have entrepreneurs pick up these concepts and exploit them, and even then many technologies, like GPS, still have to be done by the state.
- dantheman 6y ago
  Just because 50% agree on something doesn't mean it's voluntary. If you vote and everyone volunteers to do it that's fine, if you have to point a gun at them and threaten them with jail - then it's not voluntary. Yes, many large scale innovations happen due to government funding - I explicitly called that out. I'm saying that there are tons more innovations than just those. The trick for innovation is at scale is getting it to the commercial market. There's a reason the government prefers commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) vs custom tech. Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    The idea that 'free markets' are entirely voluntary is a complete fantasy - tell me, when mobile operators were selling everyone's location, how many people volunteered for that? [1] And what are they meant to do about it in a 'free market' where there is literally no other option? I consent to having a mobile phone in the same way I consent to living in a country - the alternative is living like a caveman in the woods. How do free markets, without anyone being threatened with jailtime, deal with monopolies and market manipulation - say all cable / internet providers just blocking Netflix, or Apple/Google making a secret agreement on wage suppressions [2] And if you agree that free markets need regulation, and that regulation greatly affects who becomes winners and losers, then you are back where you started -> how many people have agreed to that. 1 - https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-selling-your-location-data/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIr678-Mg_KsbJ5evz1HkuDB_j-O5y3Td6rdAqHuTlAt4HM17ipBiKc5W5Zm8RGO6MiVLhXf0_5P96qVD689Mxe7ooJJhaUELeeE06RwX_ju_4SdTLk9G227tinOU6RYbHo5FJeJZLeb2r5AB5JIsm-JOaQAFFYAtOEhN4EWB6Xc https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-sel... 2 - https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage... "Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science." Could you give an example? To me this sounds logically impossible - one has to understand the scientific principles before you can innovate on them.
danans 6y ago
> Free markets are people voluntarily interacting and have driven almost all technological development Free markets drive the scale and lower the price of technologies discovered by speculative public investment. > At the frontier, sometimes the government spends money on things where the risk is too high or the payoff too small in short term. And that is where most technological development takes place: at the frontier. And well behind the frontier, the government must also spend on the education of its populace so that they can actually implement the ideas revealed by the frontier, whether that means primary through education or technician type skills, which feeds into the free market pipeline to drive scale and lower costs. Broad access to educational opportunity is something that European countries do very well: assuring that their population (AKA pool of labor) is skilled enough to implement technologies like solar and wind.

wazoox 6y ago

Almost all of it. Rockets, computers, internet, almost everything of any significance has been bootstrapped by governments. Particularly in the US, government spending has been the root of all innovation since forever. The legend of SV garages startup is just that, a legend. The Valley started up thanks to a huge influx of government (mostly military) money around WWII. See the very interesting "secret history of Silicon Valley", digest here: https://unherd.com/2019/04/the-secret-history-of-silicon-valley/ https://unherd.com/2019/04/the-secret-history-of-silicon-val...

dantheman 6y ago
I completely agree - many early technologies are bootstrapped / funded by the government. There is no argument there, but once the initial prototype is complete - it is almost always better for progress for it to move toward commercialization and that is where rapid innovation takes place.
- alexashka 6y ago
  > it is almost always better for progress for it to move toward commercialization and that is where rapid innovation takes place. In what context? A capitalist society that's not at war, with limited crime/corruption, with established trade routes where most people are literate and a banking system that's willing to give out loans? If in that specific context, then probably yes. Do you see how that is an extremely narrow set of circumstances that's subject to change? This idea of government = less efficient, markets = efficient, is paid for propaganda by American billionaires that's been well documented. I forget the name of the book that goes through this in detail. It is not to say government = more efficient, markets = less efficient. The world is not that simple and anyone trying to make it out to be, is selling you an ideology that benefits them - check to see if it benefits you to believe in ideas that have insufficient empirical evidence to justify them.
idoh 6y ago
This really overstates the case. Government-funded R&D programs only really kicked off after the Manhattan Project. There was a lot of innovation before that, like the entirety of the industrial revolution.
- opnitro 6y ago
  Indeed many great innovations, like "have the Pinkertons shoot anyone that tries to strike".
deepnotderp 6y ago
That's overstating it a bit. The first liquid fueled rocket for example, was created entirely privately by Robert Goddard. And regarding SV, the Route 128 area received even more government investment. The book Regional Advantage delves into this.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

"people voluntarily interacting" A referendum falls under that description too. "how much of that is directly government funded/directed" Basically all fundamental research is government funded, from space exploration to study of the atom. Then publically funded scientists have published reseach papers, after the scientific journals earned their money without giving a dime to original authors. Then you might have entrepreneurs pick up these concepts and exploit them, and even then many technologies, like GPS, still have to be done by the state.

dantheman 6y ago
Just because 50% agree on something doesn't mean it's voluntary. If you vote and everyone volunteers to do it that's fine, if you have to point a gun at them and threaten them with jail - then it's not voluntary. Yes, many large scale innovations happen due to government funding - I explicitly called that out. I'm saying that there are tons more innovations than just those. The trick for innovation is at scale is getting it to the commercial market. There's a reason the government prefers commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) vs custom tech. Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  The idea that 'free markets' are entirely voluntary is a complete fantasy - tell me, when mobile operators were selling everyone's location, how many people volunteered for that? [1] And what are they meant to do about it in a 'free market' where there is literally no other option? I consent to having a mobile phone in the same way I consent to living in a country - the alternative is living like a caveman in the woods. How do free markets, without anyone being threatened with jailtime, deal with monopolies and market manipulation - say all cable / internet providers just blocking Netflix, or Apple/Google making a secret agreement on wage suppressions [2] And if you agree that free markets need regulation, and that regulation greatly affects who becomes winners and losers, then you are back where you started -> how many people have agreed to that. 1 - https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-selling-your-location-data/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIr678-Mg_KsbJ5evz1HkuDB_j-O5y3Td6rdAqHuTlAt4HM17ipBiKc5W5Zm8RGO6MiVLhXf0_5P96qVD689Mxe7ooJJhaUELeeE06RwX_ju_4SdTLk9G227tinOU6RYbHo5FJeJZLeb2r5AB5JIsm-JOaQAFFYAtOEhN4EWB6Xc https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/09/us-cell-carriers-still-sel... 2 - https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage... "Also science != innovation, and it's not necessarily science->innovation. Many times it's innovation->science." Could you give an example? To me this sounds logically impossible - one has to understand the scientific principles before you can innovate on them.

danans 6y ago

> Free markets are people voluntarily interacting and have driven almost all technological development Free markets drive the scale and lower the price of technologies discovered by speculative public investment. > At the frontier, sometimes the government spends money on things where the risk is too high or the payoff too small in short term. And that is where most technological development takes place: at the frontier. And well behind the frontier, the government must also spend on the education of its populace so that they can actually implement the ideas revealed by the frontier, whether that means primary through education or technician type skills, which feeds into the free market pipeline to drive scale and lower costs. Broad access to educational opportunity is something that European countries do very well: assuring that their population (AKA pool of labor) is skilled enough to implement technologies like solar and wind.