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I actually tried to sign up to yogaforums yesterday and I could not get the verification email. Breathing is such an interesting aspect of life that we don’t e

by kovek 6y ago

I actually tried to sign up to yogaforums yesterday and I could not get the verification email. Breathing is such an interesting aspect of life that we don’t explore a lot in popular culture.

chubot 6y ago
I've been interested in it for the last 2 or 3 years, and pleasantly surprised that it's showing up on HN a lot. Here's a surprising claim that has scientific concensus: Basically ALL humans have problems breathing. That is, apes and other mammals don't have these problems. The two main reasons are the anatomical changes due to the evolution of speech, and the advent of agriculture, which completely changed our diets and thus the structure of our jaw. Previous comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23435964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23435964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24247066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24247066 More comments about nestor's recent book Breath: https://www.google.com/search?q=nestor+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&oq=nestor+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com https://www.google.com/search?q=nestor+site%3Anews.ycombinat... The book is very good, but it's not "conclusive". It's a good exploration of many facets of breathing. It is a big subject and everyone is a little different. However it's been eye opening to me how many "minor" unexplained chronic health problems are ultimately caused by bad breathing. (And these turn into major problems over 10 or 20 years.) If you go to the doctor, you'll get treatment for the symptoms and not the cause (this has happened to many people in my family, and many people I know)
- kovek 6y ago
  > Here's a surprising claim that has scientific concensus: Basically ALL humans have problems breathing I believe this might be true. Do you have a citation, paper or source? Thank you for the resources you linked! How could I explore breathing (mine or generally)?
  - chubot 6y ago
    I would say the best popular/scientific books are Breath by Nestor (released this year), and Jaws by Kahn (2018). It's coming into public consciousness, although the books show that this knowledge was available in the 1930's and forgotten, and in the 1700's and forgotten, etc. If you prefer video, here's an in-depth interview with Nestor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5o9b2RVC2E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5o9b2RVC2E The shorter clips extracted from this interview are compelling. For more specific medical advice, there is "Sleep, Interrupted" by Park, and "The 8 hour sleep paradox" by Burhenne. It's a big area because breath affects so many parts of your physiology, but all these people are saying overlapping things, coming from their own professional viewpoint. There is a particular focus on the relation to teeth, and that is one of the most common correlations. But there are also correlations with sinus problems, acid reflux, anxiety, ADD, high blood pressure, weight gain and obesity, and bad sleep. That is, extremely common things that most people just live with for years. But they don't have to. Also, if you have children, you have to answer the question: why do so many children need orthodontic work? What happened 1000 years ago when there were no orthodontists? The answer is that our diets changed drastically in the last 200 years, and also ~10,000 years ago with the advent of agriculture. If you don't believe that, the question still needs an answer! Same with the causes of all these minor chronic problems. Most people just live with the symptoms, and for some reason don't ask for the fundamental reasons why. Like food, breath is at the the base of your physiology, so it makes sense as a candidate. ----- If you want a whole bunch of studies, I have this book (recommended by my dentist) and there are 140 scientific papers cited in the back. https://www.amazon.com/Airway-Management-Solution-Health-Crisis/dp/1977208738 https://www.amazon.com/Airway-Management-Solution-Health-Cri... "Airway dentistry" is actually its own separate subfield, which is weird because a lot of practicing dentists seem only dimly aware of it! But at least in the United States you can find "sleep dentists" or "airway dentists" in most major cities. But somehow I went 20+ years being completely unaware of their existence. The evidence that's cited over and over for the agriculture thesis is the collection of skulls at U Penn. Modern humans have drastically different skulls than humans before agriculture. That is described in "Breath" and "Jaws". I don't recall a primary source for the speech thesis, but it's mentioned in "Sleep, Interrupted", "Jaws", and "Breath". Although actually I just googled and it was easy to find a reference: https://dentalsleeppractice.com/ce-articles/evolution-human-oral-airway-apnea/ https://dentalsleeppractice.com/ce-articles/evolution-human-... Significant evolutionary changes to the human head are flat face, smaller chin, shorter oral cavity, changes in jaw function, repositioning of ears behind jaws, ascent of the uvula and descent of the epiglottis, right angle bend in tongue, creation of compliant, combined, flexible airway-foodway, and speech.9 9. “Reconstructing Human Origins”, Conroy, GC; 2nd ed. WW Norton, NewYork, 2005. I haven't heard of this book but it seems legit: https://www.amazon.com/Reconstructing-Human-Origins-Modern-Synthesis/dp/0393912892 https://www.amazon.com/Reconstructing-Human-Origins-Modern-S... Anyway I think there is plenty of scientific evidence. What really matters is that this knowledge makes its way into popular culture and common medical practice. That appears to be happening, but it's surprisingly uneven! Hope that helps, and feel free to follow up with questions... I'm thinking of starting a blog on this subject, based on reading several books, and talking to many doctors who seem completely unaware of this. Nestor's book explains why doctors are unaware of it, and why most people get poor treatment for these issues: because doctors are specialists, and they are used to fixing severe problems. They are trained to see their part of the equation. Breathing is more holistic because it affects everything: your teeth, mouth, eyes, brain, heart, etc. And bad breathing kills you over 20 years. It doesn't cause an emergency in most cases.
- mcjkrw 6y ago
  Babies have the proper breathing and posture. Chairs and stresses of the daily life is probably where the issue is.
  - chubot 6y ago
    Babies have drastically different skulls, but there are infants who snore. My understanding is that this is increasingly common (if you ask doctors), and it's caused by the same anatomical problems that cause sleep apnea in adults. People used to think snoring is benign, but others will say that infants should never snore. The common adenoids surgery in children is also due to a small airway, although people will tell you it's because they have "large adenoids"! Your second sentence doesn't follow. Babies exhibit fewer of these problems, but that doesn't mean that evolutionary changes and agriculture aren't the cause of the problem in adults. Babies don't have developed jaws, and one of the main points is that jaw development isn't primarily genetic; it's shaped by the "environment" of the jaw, which is essentially the diet. If braces can shape the jaw, then so can 10 years of eating soft foods, industrial cooking, etc. See my sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25024626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25024626
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by kovek 6y ago

I actually tried to sign up to yogaforums yesterday and I could not get the verification email. Breathing is such an interesting aspect of life that we don’t explore a lot in popular culture.

chubot 6y ago

I've been interested in it for the last 2 or 3 years, and pleasantly surprised that it's showing up on HN a lot. Here's a surprising claim that has scientific concensus: Basically ALL humans have problems breathing. That is, apes and other mammals don't have these problems. The two main reasons are the anatomical changes due to the evolution of speech, and the advent of agriculture, which completely changed our diets and thus the structure of our jaw. Previous comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23435964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23435964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24247066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24247066 More comments about nestor's recent book Breath: https://www.google.com/search?q=nestor+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&oq=nestor+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com https://www.google.com/search?q=nestor+site%3Anews.ycombinat... The book is very good, but it's not "conclusive". It's a good exploration of many facets of breathing. It is a big subject and everyone is a little different. However it's been eye opening to me how many "minor" unexplained chronic health problems are ultimately caused by bad breathing. (And these turn into major problems over 10 or 20 years.) If you go to the doctor, you'll get treatment for the symptoms and not the cause (this has happened to many people in my family, and many people I know)

kovek 6y ago
> Here's a surprising claim that has scientific concensus: Basically ALL humans have problems breathing I believe this might be true. Do you have a citation, paper or source? Thank you for the resources you linked! How could I explore breathing (mine or generally)?
- chubot 6y ago
  I would say the best popular/scientific books are Breath by Nestor (released this year), and Jaws by Kahn (2018). It's coming into public consciousness, although the books show that this knowledge was available in the 1930's and forgotten, and in the 1700's and forgotten, etc. If you prefer video, here's an in-depth interview with Nestor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5o9b2RVC2E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5o9b2RVC2E The shorter clips extracted from this interview are compelling. For more specific medical advice, there is "Sleep, Interrupted" by Park, and "The 8 hour sleep paradox" by Burhenne. It's a big area because breath affects so many parts of your physiology, but all these people are saying overlapping things, coming from their own professional viewpoint. There is a particular focus on the relation to teeth, and that is one of the most common correlations. But there are also correlations with sinus problems, acid reflux, anxiety, ADD, high blood pressure, weight gain and obesity, and bad sleep. That is, extremely common things that most people just live with for years. But they don't have to. Also, if you have children, you have to answer the question: why do so many children need orthodontic work? What happened 1000 years ago when there were no orthodontists? The answer is that our diets changed drastically in the last 200 years, and also ~10,000 years ago with the advent of agriculture. If you don't believe that, the question still needs an answer! Same with the causes of all these minor chronic problems. Most people just live with the symptoms, and for some reason don't ask for the fundamental reasons why. Like food, breath is at the the base of your physiology, so it makes sense as a candidate. ----- If you want a whole bunch of studies, I have this book (recommended by my dentist) and there are 140 scientific papers cited in the back. https://www.amazon.com/Airway-Management-Solution-Health-Crisis/dp/1977208738 https://www.amazon.com/Airway-Management-Solution-Health-Cri... "Airway dentistry" is actually its own separate subfield, which is weird because a lot of practicing dentists seem only dimly aware of it! But at least in the United States you can find "sleep dentists" or "airway dentists" in most major cities. But somehow I went 20+ years being completely unaware of their existence. The evidence that's cited over and over for the agriculture thesis is the collection of skulls at U Penn. Modern humans have drastically different skulls than humans before agriculture. That is described in "Breath" and "Jaws". I don't recall a primary source for the speech thesis, but it's mentioned in "Sleep, Interrupted", "Jaws", and "Breath". Although actually I just googled and it was easy to find a reference: https://dentalsleeppractice.com/ce-articles/evolution-human-oral-airway-apnea/ https://dentalsleeppractice.com/ce-articles/evolution-human-... Significant evolutionary changes to the human head are flat face, smaller chin, shorter oral cavity, changes in jaw function, repositioning of ears behind jaws, ascent of the uvula and descent of the epiglottis, right angle bend in tongue, creation of compliant, combined, flexible airway-foodway, and speech.9 9. “Reconstructing Human Origins”, Conroy, GC; 2nd ed. WW Norton, NewYork, 2005. I haven't heard of this book but it seems legit: https://www.amazon.com/Reconstructing-Human-Origins-Modern-Synthesis/dp/0393912892 https://www.amazon.com/Reconstructing-Human-Origins-Modern-S... Anyway I think there is plenty of scientific evidence. What really matters is that this knowledge makes its way into popular culture and common medical practice. That appears to be happening, but it's surprisingly uneven! Hope that helps, and feel free to follow up with questions... I'm thinking of starting a blog on this subject, based on reading several books, and talking to many doctors who seem completely unaware of this. Nestor's book explains why doctors are unaware of it, and why most people get poor treatment for these issues: because doctors are specialists, and they are used to fixing severe problems. They are trained to see their part of the equation. Breathing is more holistic because it affects everything: your teeth, mouth, eyes, brain, heart, etc. And bad breathing kills you over 20 years. It doesn't cause an emergency in most cases.
mcjkrw 6y ago
Babies have the proper breathing and posture. Chairs and stresses of the daily life is probably where the issue is.
- chubot 6y ago
  Babies have drastically different skulls, but there are infants who snore. My understanding is that this is increasingly common (if you ask doctors), and it's caused by the same anatomical problems that cause sleep apnea in adults. People used to think snoring is benign, but others will say that infants should never snore. The common adenoids surgery in children is also due to a small airway, although people will tell you it's because they have "large adenoids"! Your second sentence doesn't follow. Babies exhibit fewer of these problems, but that doesn't mean that evolutionary changes and agriculture aren't the cause of the problem in adults. Babies don't have developed jaws, and one of the main points is that jaw development isn't primarily genetic; it's shaped by the "environment" of the jaw, which is essentially the diet. If braces can shape the jaw, then so can 10 years of eating soft foods, industrial cooking, etc. See my sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25024626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25024626

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]