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As new games appear the lines will continue to get a bit blurry. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup and Hades are both roguelike by my estimation, but runs affect future

As new games appear the lines will continue to get a bit blurry. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup and Hades are both roguelike by my estimation, but runs affect future runs in both games.

andrewzah 6y ago
> runs affect future runs That is more or less a rogue-lite in my opinion. Games like The Binding of Isaac, FTL, Rogue Legacy, Crypt of the NecroDancer etc. It's a fuzzy definition, though.
- dllthomas 6y ago
  Many of the core examples of rogue-likes have the concept of bones files, where you can encounter the level a previous character died on. So in those cases some runs affect some future runs. I assume that what's being talked about in DCSS and Hades is a stronger effect, though?
  - shhsshs 6y ago
    > I assume that what's being talked about in DCSS and Hades is a stronger effect, though? Very much so. In some games, past runs only unlock additional content (more possible items, monsters, etc.). In Hades, for example, you actually get stronger with each run.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    I have not played Hades, but I think referring to these types of games on a spectrum is more apt. In The Binding of Isaac, each run starts the same. The difference is playthroughs allow new items to be found, but the main character is not enhanced. FTL unlocks different starting ships, but there are no "upgrades" as far as I'm aware, just different ships with pros and cons. In Rogue Legacy and Crypt of the NecroDancer, successful playthroughs enhance aspects of the main character. This to me is a hallmark of roguelites. The Binding of Isaac technically has iterations but since only the random item pool is modified, I would keep it in the roguelike camp.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pvg 6y ago
    Hades is pretty far on the 'progression' spectrum, yes. Both the story and the character's capabilities evolve with each run. There's also resource gathering. The game has additional mechanics so you can speed up progression if you want.
  - azernik 6y ago
    "Rogue-lites" usually refer not just to persistent state, but to persistent progression across runs.
    - chongli 6y ago
      Unlocking ship types in FTL is technically progression but is of a purely horizontal nature. When you unlock a new ship it has zero affect on runs with any of the other ships. This is markedly different from something like Binding of Isaac where you unlock new things to find that affect all future runs.
  - masklinn 6y ago
    > Many of the core examples of rogue-likes have the concept of bones files, where you can encounter the level a previous character died on. So in those cases some runs affect some future runs. They affect one another, but there's no meta-resource and meta-progression as in an Enter the Gungeon, Hades or Dead Cells.
- chongli 6y ago
  FTL has unlocking of the ship types but that doesn’t affect future runs of a given ship at all. That’s like having unlocks for different character classes. In no way does that make FTL “lite”.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    You're right, I wasn't thinking when I lumped in FTL there.
bigbubba 6y ago
This is also true in Nethack. Possessions lost in previous runs may be found again in later runs in bones levels.
- chongli 6y ago
  Yeah. And there exists a very scummy form of meta-gaming exploit known as bones stuffing where you deliberately create well-stocked bones levels for future characters to find.
  - User23 6y ago
    If you don't scum though bones are far from guaranteed and often a bones level just means getting murdered by a summoned demon lord or something. I wouldn't call it a progress mechanic like we see in roguelites.
djur 6y ago
There's no metaprogression (runs affecting future runs) in DCSS. You must be confusing it with a different game. It's a classical "Berlin Interpretation" roguelike in every regard.
- jere 6y ago
  Right. The only thing that can potentially carry over across DCSS runs is a "player ghost", which actually makes the game much harder rather than easier. In any case that's a very small part of the game.
  - djur 6y ago
    DCSS ghosts also guard random loot, not a bones pile like in NetHack. And in recent versions the game has a set of built-in ghosts that can appear even on a fresh install, so there's not even a meaningful difference between your first playthrough and later ones.
- bhickey 6y ago
  > It's a classical "Berlin Interpretation" roguelike in every regard. This is no surprise. David Ploog and his sister Johanna helped write the Berlin Interpretation. David served as de facto PMs of crawl for years.
- skyyler 6y ago
  I think they're likely referring to ghosts.
  - djur 6y ago
    If that's the case, the pairing with Hades (a game with strong metaprogression) muddles the point. As I mentioned in another comment, DCSS doesn't have "bones" to loot and it will generate ghosts regardless of whether you've actually played before, so the impact of previous runs on future runs is essentially cosmetic.
shhsshs 6y ago
That type of mechanic is often referred to as rogue-lite
fabian2k 6y ago
Hades is typically called a roguelite, and the progression elements are rather strong for the genre. You get significantly more powerful with some permanent upgrades. This does make a lot of sense for the game, especially with the strong focus on the story. You want most players to be able to complete the game after a certain amount of tries, but not too early to shortcut the story. And the real difficulty slider is in the endgame anyway.

As new games appear the lines will continue to get a bit blurry. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup and Hades are both roguelike by my estimation, but runs affect future runs in both games.

andrewzah 6y ago

> runs affect future runs That is more or less a rogue-lite in my opinion. Games like The Binding of Isaac, FTL, Rogue Legacy, Crypt of the NecroDancer etc. It's a fuzzy definition, though.

dllthomas 6y ago
Many of the core examples of rogue-likes have the concept of bones files, where you can encounter the level a previous character died on. So in those cases some runs affect some future runs. I assume that what's being talked about in DCSS and Hades is a stronger effect, though?
- shhsshs 6y ago
  > I assume that what's being talked about in DCSS and Hades is a stronger effect, though? Very much so. In some games, past runs only unlock additional content (more possible items, monsters, etc.). In Hades, for example, you actually get stronger with each run.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  I have not played Hades, but I think referring to these types of games on a spectrum is more apt. In The Binding of Isaac, each run starts the same. The difference is playthroughs allow new items to be found, but the main character is not enhanced. FTL unlocks different starting ships, but there are no "upgrades" as far as I'm aware, just different ships with pros and cons. In Rogue Legacy and Crypt of the NecroDancer, successful playthroughs enhance aspects of the main character. This to me is a hallmark of roguelites. The Binding of Isaac technically has iterations but since only the random item pool is modified, I would keep it in the roguelike camp.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pvg 6y ago
  Hades is pretty far on the 'progression' spectrum, yes. Both the story and the character's capabilities evolve with each run. There's also resource gathering. The game has additional mechanics so you can speed up progression if you want.
- azernik 6y ago
  "Rogue-lites" usually refer not just to persistent state, but to persistent progression across runs.
  - chongli 6y ago
    Unlocking ship types in FTL is technically progression but is of a purely horizontal nature. When you unlock a new ship it has zero affect on runs with any of the other ships. This is markedly different from something like Binding of Isaac where you unlock new things to find that affect all future runs.
- masklinn 6y ago
  > Many of the core examples of rogue-likes have the concept of bones files, where you can encounter the level a previous character died on. So in those cases some runs affect some future runs. They affect one another, but there's no meta-resource and meta-progression as in an Enter the Gungeon, Hades or Dead Cells.
chongli 6y ago
FTL has unlocking of the ship types but that doesn’t affect future runs of a given ship at all. That’s like having unlocks for different character classes. In no way does that make FTL “lite”.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  You're right, I wasn't thinking when I lumped in FTL there.

bigbubba 6y ago

This is also true in Nethack. Possessions lost in previous runs may be found again in later runs in bones levels.

chongli 6y ago
Yeah. And there exists a very scummy form of meta-gaming exploit known as bones stuffing where you deliberately create well-stocked bones levels for future characters to find.
- User23 6y ago
  If you don't scum though bones are far from guaranteed and often a bones level just means getting murdered by a summoned demon lord or something. I wouldn't call it a progress mechanic like we see in roguelites.

djur 6y ago

There's no metaprogression (runs affecting future runs) in DCSS. You must be confusing it with a different game. It's a classical "Berlin Interpretation" roguelike in every regard.

jere 6y ago
Right. The only thing that can potentially carry over across DCSS runs is a "player ghost", which actually makes the game much harder rather than easier. In any case that's a very small part of the game.
- djur 6y ago
  DCSS ghosts also guard random loot, not a bones pile like in NetHack. And in recent versions the game has a set of built-in ghosts that can appear even on a fresh install, so there's not even a meaningful difference between your first playthrough and later ones.
bhickey 6y ago
> It's a classical "Berlin Interpretation" roguelike in every regard. This is no surprise. David Ploog and his sister Johanna helped write the Berlin Interpretation. David served as de facto PMs of crawl for years.
skyyler 6y ago
I think they're likely referring to ghosts.
- djur 6y ago
  If that's the case, the pairing with Hades (a game with strong metaprogression) muddles the point. As I mentioned in another comment, DCSS doesn't have "bones" to loot and it will generate ghosts regardless of whether you've actually played before, so the impact of previous runs on future runs is essentially cosmetic.

shhsshs 6y ago

That type of mechanic is often referred to as rogue-lite

fabian2k 6y ago

Hades is typically called a roguelite, and the progression elements are rather strong for the genre. You get significantly more powerful with some permanent upgrades. This does make a lot of sense for the game, especially with the strong focus on the story. You want most players to be able to complete the game after a certain amount of tries, but not too early to shortcut the story. And the real difficulty slider is in the endgame anyway.