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Basic human lesson here: We are accountable to those we need stuff from. Every human needs Earth right now. Anyone wanting to establish fresh needs to not ne

Basic human lesson here: We are accountable to those we need stuff from. Every human needs Earth right now. Anyone wanting to establish fresh needs to not need earth, period. They can then approach the earth as a sovereign trading peer. Seems to me no more complex than that.

dnissley 6y ago
And in the meantime... things are going to be messy. Just like between American colonists and the British Empire. Hopefully we can avoid unnecessary bloodshed this time around, if and when the time comes for Mars to establish its independence.
- ddingus 6y ago
  There will absolutely be bloodshed. I harbour no doubt.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> Every human needs Earth right now. I think this will be the case for an incredibly long time, if not forever. In the face of climate change or an extinction-level event like the one at the end of the Cretaceous period, even the bottom of the ocean would be a more habitable environment than Mars would.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  > even the bottom of the ocean would be a more habitable environment than Mars would. Fun (and mostly unrelated) fact I learned on a Joe Rogan podcast: If you are at the bottom of the ocean, it actually takes 7 times longer to get to the hospital than if you are on the international space station. If you are aboard the ISP, you can get to a hospital within about 24 hours if needed. But if you're at the bottom of the ocean, it takes about a week to surface because you have to give your body time to adjust. I think those are the correct numbers at least. It's been a while. From a super interesting episode with Garrett Reisman, who lived on the bottom of the ocean: https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI
- FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
  You can survive on Mars with protection similar to that required to summit Mount Everest. Mars is a little colder and a little lower pressure and you need oxygen for both.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    At sea-level, Earth's atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi and Mt Everest summit's is about 4 psi. Mars' atmospheric pressure is about 0.087 psi. Apparently a pressurized suit is required to survive on Mars[1]. Also, Mars' soil has toxic amounts of perchlorates[2]. You wouldn't want to breathe them in or have them touch your skin. [1] https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-breathe-and-survive-on-Mars-with-an-oxygen-tank-but-without-a-space-suit https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-breathe-and-survive-... [2] https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals...
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      To add to this, apparently your blood will boil at 0.9 psi[1]. [1] https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/16741/what-is-the-minimum-air-pressure-the-human-body-can-tolerate-if-oxygen-supply-is https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/16741/what-is-th...
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > I think this will be the case for an incredibly long time, if not forever. This seems unlikely to remain true if Martian settlement becomes a real thing. The shipping cost of <anything> from Earth to Mars is so preposterously expensive that a high priority of any settlement would be to make everything self-sufficient as quickly as possible in order to avoid it.
paxys 6y ago
No, we are only accountable to people with bigger guns than us. Native Americans didn't need anything from foreign settlers, and look how that ended up. Mars can have 100% self sufficiency but will only have freedom if it can defend it.
- ASalazarMX 6y ago
  And this, folks, was practice beating theory.
  - ddingus 6y ago
    :D
- ddingus 6y ago
  Well, guns do a lot, but they do not contradict the basic premise. The bare minimum to even have the discussion is sufficiency. Having something to defend. I agree with you otherwise. And the example of sovereign trading peer holds too. Being able to assert sovereignty in a way that matters to would be oppressors speaks to how wise it is to declare said sovereignty, does it not? In any case Musk is cart well before horse here. Humorously so.

dnissley 6y ago

And in the meantime... things are going to be messy. Just like between American colonists and the British Empire. Hopefully we can avoid unnecessary bloodshed this time around, if and when the time comes for Mars to establish its independence.

ddingus 6y ago
There will absolutely be bloodshed. I harbour no doubt.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> Every human needs Earth right now. I think this will be the case for an incredibly long time, if not forever. In the face of climate change or an extinction-level event like the one at the end of the Cretaceous period, even the bottom of the ocean would be a more habitable environment than Mars would.

buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
> even the bottom of the ocean would be a more habitable environment than Mars would. Fun (and mostly unrelated) fact I learned on a Joe Rogan podcast: If you are at the bottom of the ocean, it actually takes 7 times longer to get to the hospital than if you are on the international space station. If you are aboard the ISP, you can get to a hospital within about 24 hours if needed. But if you're at the bottom of the ocean, it takes about a week to surface because you have to give your body time to adjust. I think those are the correct numbers at least. It's been a while. From a super interesting episode with Garrett Reisman, who lived on the bottom of the ocean: https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI
FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
You can survive on Mars with protection similar to that required to summit Mount Everest. Mars is a little colder and a little lower pressure and you need oxygen for both.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  At sea-level, Earth's atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi and Mt Everest summit's is about 4 psi. Mars' atmospheric pressure is about 0.087 psi. Apparently a pressurized suit is required to survive on Mars[1]. Also, Mars' soil has toxic amounts of perchlorates[2]. You wouldn't want to breathe them in or have them touch your skin. [1] https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-breathe-and-survive-on-Mars-with-an-oxygen-tank-but-without-a-space-suit https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-breathe-and-survive-... [2] https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals...
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    To add to this, apparently your blood will boil at 0.9 psi[1]. [1] https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/16741/what-is-the-minimum-air-pressure-the-human-body-can-tolerate-if-oxygen-supply-is https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/16741/what-is-th...
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> I think this will be the case for an incredibly long time, if not forever. This seems unlikely to remain true if Martian settlement becomes a real thing. The shipping cost of <anything> from Earth to Mars is so preposterously expensive that a high priority of any settlement would be to make everything self-sufficient as quickly as possible in order to avoid it.

paxys 6y ago

No, we are only accountable to people with bigger guns than us. Native Americans didn't need anything from foreign settlers, and look how that ended up. Mars can have 100% self sufficiency but will only have freedom if it can defend it.

ASalazarMX 6y ago
And this, folks, was practice beating theory.
- ddingus 6y ago
  :D
ddingus 6y ago
Well, guns do a lot, but they do not contradict the basic premise. The bare minimum to even have the discussion is sufficiency. Having something to defend. I agree with you otherwise. And the example of sovereign trading peer holds too. Being able to assert sovereignty in a way that matters to would be oppressors speaks to how wise it is to declare said sovereignty, does it not? In any case Musk is cart well before horse here. Humorously so.