5 ms·

What Safari’s “Reading List” in Lion means for Instapaper

39 points by jakewalker 15y ago

jakewalker 15y ago
There are some legendary stories about what happens when Apple enters your market. I think Marco's right that he's pretty safe on the Instapaper front (for the reasons he says). That said, here's another tale of Apple entering a market, written by Cabel Sasser at Panic about Audion: http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/ http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/
- ja2ke 15y ago
  Panic's "Graduate from iTunes" banner ad campaign for Audion is a great example of trying for the pro/hardcore market when Apple has entered your space. Specifically, it's a great example of how it is very very hard to make it work out for you, but still, they tried.
olivercameron 15y ago
I agree with everything, except his last point: "And if they build a large enough feature-set and backing service to make it a true competitor, they’re likely to create a lot of potential Instapaper demand." Isn't that a little backwards? If Apple builds a true competitor, then it's going to create a lot less potential Instapaper demand. See Watson and Kaleidoscope for reasons why.
- veritgo 15y ago
  I think he's betting on being able to implement better than apple. He states: My biggest challenge isn’t winning over converts from my competitors: it’s explaining what Instapaper does and convincing people that they actually need it. So if apple deploys this everywhere, more people will understand it. Since Instapaper already has such a huge user base, established users will (supposedly) say 'oh, I use instapaper. It's much better'. So apple creates new users, which are then drawn to Instapaper's superior service. This is all dependent upon Instapaper actually implementing substantially better, but so far apple has sucked at multi-device syncing of, well, just about anything.
  - olivercameron 15y ago
    I don't buy it. If Apple creates new users, more often than not they will keep them. I wouldn't count on Instapaper's huge user base (which I'm guessing is mainly the tech crowd) influencing normal, everyday users. Sherlock beating Watson was a prime example where Apple's execution was somewhat similar (some say worse), but it still killed that product.
    - morrow 15y ago
      I'd argue that apple is largely responsible for android's success - normal, everyday people knew they wanted a touchscreen smartphone only after apple made it possible to own one, but more importantly, made it popular to own one with the iPhone. As long as there is enough of a difference between them to choose one over the other, I think he's right to bet on it being a net-win for him.
hollerith 15y ago
I'd rather have a "Video Viewing List" that gets video watching out of the browser. Apple is one of the few participants in the ecosystem that might have enough "market power" to do that at this late date.
- morrow 15y ago
  I agree - I'm trying out http://vhx.tv http://vhx.tv after someone recommended it here, though it is still in the browser at the moment ( I believe they are working on apps). However, there's still a problem I haven't seen any video-instapaper service solve - how to cache videos for offline / multiple device viewing. I think you run into a lot more issues with copyright enforcement, storage space, and ability to even copy files (different format, might only be served in flash) than text-based services have. We might have to wait until HTML5 video grows enough in popularity before seeing a decent implementation of this feature.
  - scottjackson 15y ago
    http://watchlaterapp.com/ http://watchlaterapp.com/ will do offline caching (including Flash videos) to your iPad, but it's only a web/iPad service, so I'm not sure it ticks the "multiple device" box.
    - franciscohui 15y ago
      interesting, though I just signed up and my video player was empty, and I'm hesitant to pay for their iPad app. That's one of the things I like about the onboarding experience with Shelby.tv; when you sign up, you can start watching what your friends are tweeting/sharing since it pulls it from you twitter/facebook accounts.
  - MariageInit 15y ago
    I know shelby.tv has a bookmarklet that supports an instapaper type service. Also, I believe Shelby.tv supports more video players than VHX.
  - deleted 15y ago
tolmasky 15y ago
The track record for Apple turning third party apps into features (as opposed to their own apps ala iTunes), has been pretty pathetic: usually what happens is that its so poorly done by Apple that the feature just stops being used and the functionality just flat out dies. Examples: 1. Quicksilver <-> Spotlight. Spotlight is terrible. Everyone I know who used quicksilver just uses nothing now. They certainly haven't "switched" to Spotlight because spotlight doesn't do anything half as well as quicksilver did, not even launching apps for god's sake. 2. Kaleidoscope <-> Dashboard. Another disaster. Dashboard seems to exist solely to be accidentally opened, or I guess for some people it serves as their dedicated weather "space". Apple does not hype up widgets at all anymore. 3. Safari RSS. Does anyone actually use this? Or how about Mail.app RSS? At least here the third party RSS apps didn't die (although I see less people using RSS than ever, but I don't attribute this to OS RSS integration).
- bonch 15y ago
  Every item on your list is you projecting your personal opinions onto everyone else. Just because you and your Quicksilver-using buddies don't use Spotlight, Dashboard, or Safari RSS doesn't mean other people don't. The features Apple adds are intended to add value and convenience for the average user. If you have RSS needs so great that you require a dedicated third-party application, you're more than welcome to use one.
  - tolmasky 15y ago
    I actually 1: did not use quicksilver, 2. did not use kaleidoscope, and 3. never used RSS. These thoughts are purely empirical: RSS was primarily a nerd feature in the first place, which is why it is so silly that Apple added it for consumers, not once, but TWICE. No one actually uses Safari RSS. If they did, why the need to then add it to Mail.app? Would it add even MORE value to add RSS to the Finder too? Why stop there, iTunes seems to have everything else in there already, one more tab that reads "RSS" wouldn't hurt. Dashboard being a failure is clear. If it was a success (like the App Store), we'd still see Apple touting widgets and maybe even selling them. The fact of the matter is that there is no ecosystem of people writing widgets for this thing. Dashcode was largely repurposed as an iOS web app creation tool (also unused by all). So the result: no Kaleidoscope and hardly any Dashboard use. Spotlight: It has been shown to be much slower than other tools (and was terribly buggy for many releases, where was the value back when it needed to re-index on every reboot and dragged your computer to a halt?) Most of the "Add on" features are broken too: if you type a simple formula into it, it will show the result, but you can't copy/paste it, so what's the point? I'm not hating on Apple, they clearly get a lot of stuff right (such as Expose!), but their track record proves they get more stuff right when its their own idea. These little feature additions that seem designed solely to kill third party devs seem almost like half-hearted mini passion projects of single engineers that then die when they get reassigned to something else. Feel free to directly address each of my points.
kenjackson 15y ago
What if Apple pulls Instapaper from the iPad/iPhone app store claiming it duplicates capabilities?
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Unlikely. There are lots of non-Mac iPhone/iPod users who won't use Safari even if available on their platform.
- glhaynes 15y ago
  I don't believe they've ever pulled an app that had already been up on the store for duplicating built-in functionality.
  - Kylekramer 15y ago
    They did during the Google Voice fiasco. A bunch of third party GV apps that were already approved (GV Mobile was one [1]) were pulled. Since rectified, but has happened before. 1: http://www.seankovacs.com/index.php/2009/07/gv-mobile-is-getting-pulled-from-app-store/ http://www.seankovacs.com/index.php/2009/07/gv-mobile-is-get...
  - scottjackson 15y ago
    There was the kerfuffle at the start of the month with QuickPick. Apple rejected an _update_ to an app that was already on the Store that duplicated (future) built-in functionality: http://www.tuaw.com/2011/04/08/quickpick-update-in-limbo-for-lion-similarities/ http://www.tuaw.com/2011/04/08/quickpick-update-in-limbo-for... The original version of the app is still up on the Store, but the update was rejected. Which is confusing.
rbanffy 15y ago
Not much unless OSX achieves higher market share than its competition or people on other platforms start to use Safari instead of their preferred browsers. That won't happen anytime soon. I'd be more worried about a feature like this coming to Mobile Safari.
cmchien 15y ago
Re: the Starbucks effect, I'm not sure I agree. I think the difference between Starbucks moving in next door and Apple implementing a feature like Reading List is that in the case of Starbucks moving in next door, their marketing drives foot traffic to the vicinity of your location--which you can then take advantage of. I.e., people walking by see your signage and therefore you can capture sales. It is the creation of demand, but it's the creation of demand that your own (much less resourced marketing) can then take advantage of. In the Reading List case, there's no guarantee that customers that "get educated" about the product will necessarily ever find out about yours. It's still up to you to be in the same "location" as the competitor's product in order to benefit from their marketing. This may be the case for very well-known products that are always going to be discussed in concert with a feature launched by an Apple in the media, product reviews, etc. But it's certainly not categorically the case.
benmichael 15y ago
If Apple brings this out, it wont have an API. They may promise one (like facetime) but Instapaper will still be #1 for at least another 12 months.
originalgeek 15y ago
Dude has a much better attitude about it than some other guys who ended up in a similar situation. (The Konfabulator tantrum comes to mind)

39 points by jakewalker 15y ago

There are some legendary stories about what happens when Apple enters your market. I think Marco's right that he's pretty safe on the Instapaper front (for the reasons he says). That said, here's another tale of Apple entering a market, written by Cabel Sasser at Panic about Audion: http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/ http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/

ja2ke 15y ago
Panic's "Graduate from iTunes" banner ad campaign for Audion is a great example of trying for the pro/hardcore market when Apple has entered your space. Specifically, it's a great example of how it is very very hard to make it work out for you, but still, they tried.

olivercameron 15y ago

I agree with everything, except his last point: "And if they build a large enough feature-set and backing service to make it a true competitor, they’re likely to create a lot of potential Instapaper demand." Isn't that a little backwards? If Apple builds a true competitor, then it's going to create a lot less potential Instapaper demand. See Watson and Kaleidoscope for reasons why.

veritgo 15y ago
I think he's betting on being able to implement better than apple. He states: My biggest challenge isn’t winning over converts from my competitors: it’s explaining what Instapaper does and convincing people that they actually need it. So if apple deploys this everywhere, more people will understand it. Since Instapaper already has such a huge user base, established users will (supposedly) say 'oh, I use instapaper. It's much better'. So apple creates new users, which are then drawn to Instapaper's superior service. This is all dependent upon Instapaper actually implementing substantially better, but so far apple has sucked at multi-device syncing of, well, just about anything.
- olivercameron 15y ago
  I don't buy it. If Apple creates new users, more often than not they will keep them. I wouldn't count on Instapaper's huge user base (which I'm guessing is mainly the tech crowd) influencing normal, everyday users. Sherlock beating Watson was a prime example where Apple's execution was somewhat similar (some say worse), but it still killed that product.
  - morrow 15y ago
    I'd argue that apple is largely responsible for android's success - normal, everyday people knew they wanted a touchscreen smartphone only after apple made it possible to own one, but more importantly, made it popular to own one with the iPhone. As long as there is enough of a difference between them to choose one over the other, I think he's right to bet on it being a net-win for him.

hollerith 15y ago

I'd rather have a "Video Viewing List" that gets video watching out of the browser. Apple is one of the few participants in the ecosystem that might have enough "market power" to do that at this late date.

morrow 15y ago
I agree - I'm trying out http://vhx.tv http://vhx.tv after someone recommended it here, though it is still in the browser at the moment ( I believe they are working on apps). However, there's still a problem I haven't seen any video-instapaper service solve - how to cache videos for offline / multiple device viewing. I think you run into a lot more issues with copyright enforcement, storage space, and ability to even copy files (different format, might only be served in flash) than text-based services have. We might have to wait until HTML5 video grows enough in popularity before seeing a decent implementation of this feature.
- scottjackson 15y ago
  http://watchlaterapp.com/ http://watchlaterapp.com/ will do offline caching (including Flash videos) to your iPad, but it's only a web/iPad service, so I'm not sure it ticks the "multiple device" box.
  - franciscohui 15y ago
    interesting, though I just signed up and my video player was empty, and I'm hesitant to pay for their iPad app. That's one of the things I like about the onboarding experience with Shelby.tv; when you sign up, you can start watching what your friends are tweeting/sharing since it pulls it from you twitter/facebook accounts.
- MariageInit 15y ago
  I know shelby.tv has a bookmarklet that supports an instapaper type service. Also, I believe Shelby.tv supports more video players than VHX.
- deleted 15y ago

tolmasky 15y ago

The track record for Apple turning third party apps into features (as opposed to their own apps ala iTunes), has been pretty pathetic: usually what happens is that its so poorly done by Apple that the feature just stops being used and the functionality just flat out dies. Examples: 1. Quicksilver <-> Spotlight. Spotlight is terrible. Everyone I know who used quicksilver just uses nothing now. They certainly haven't "switched" to Spotlight because spotlight doesn't do anything half as well as quicksilver did, not even launching apps for god's sake. 2. Kaleidoscope <-> Dashboard. Another disaster. Dashboard seems to exist solely to be accidentally opened, or I guess for some people it serves as their dedicated weather "space". Apple does not hype up widgets at all anymore. 3. Safari RSS. Does anyone actually use this? Or how about Mail.app RSS? At least here the third party RSS apps didn't die (although I see less people using RSS than ever, but I don't attribute this to OS RSS integration).

bonch 15y ago
Every item on your list is you projecting your personal opinions onto everyone else. Just because you and your Quicksilver-using buddies don't use Spotlight, Dashboard, or Safari RSS doesn't mean other people don't. The features Apple adds are intended to add value and convenience for the average user. If you have RSS needs so great that you require a dedicated third-party application, you're more than welcome to use one.
- tolmasky 15y ago
  I actually 1: did not use quicksilver, 2. did not use kaleidoscope, and 3. never used RSS. These thoughts are purely empirical: RSS was primarily a nerd feature in the first place, which is why it is so silly that Apple added it for consumers, not once, but TWICE. No one actually uses Safari RSS. If they did, why the need to then add it to Mail.app? Would it add even MORE value to add RSS to the Finder too? Why stop there, iTunes seems to have everything else in there already, one more tab that reads "RSS" wouldn't hurt. Dashboard being a failure is clear. If it was a success (like the App Store), we'd still see Apple touting widgets and maybe even selling them. The fact of the matter is that there is no ecosystem of people writing widgets for this thing. Dashcode was largely repurposed as an iOS web app creation tool (also unused by all). So the result: no Kaleidoscope and hardly any Dashboard use. Spotlight: It has been shown to be much slower than other tools (and was terribly buggy for many releases, where was the value back when it needed to re-index on every reboot and dragged your computer to a halt?) Most of the "Add on" features are broken too: if you type a simple formula into it, it will show the result, but you can't copy/paste it, so what's the point? I'm not hating on Apple, they clearly get a lot of stuff right (such as Expose!), but their track record proves they get more stuff right when its their own idea. These little feature additions that seem designed solely to kill third party devs seem almost like half-hearted mini passion projects of single engineers that then die when they get reassigned to something else. Feel free to directly address each of my points.

kenjackson 15y ago

What if Apple pulls Instapaper from the iPad/iPhone app store claiming it duplicates capabilities?

rbanffy 15y ago
Unlikely. There are lots of non-Mac iPhone/iPod users who won't use Safari even if available on their platform.
glhaynes 15y ago
I don't believe they've ever pulled an app that had already been up on the store for duplicating built-in functionality.
- Kylekramer 15y ago
  They did during the Google Voice fiasco. A bunch of third party GV apps that were already approved (GV Mobile was one [1]) were pulled. Since rectified, but has happened before. 1: http://www.seankovacs.com/index.php/2009/07/gv-mobile-is-getting-pulled-from-app-store/ http://www.seankovacs.com/index.php/2009/07/gv-mobile-is-get...
- scottjackson 15y ago
  There was the kerfuffle at the start of the month with QuickPick. Apple rejected an _update_ to an app that was already on the Store that duplicated (future) built-in functionality: http://www.tuaw.com/2011/04/08/quickpick-update-in-limbo-for-lion-similarities/ http://www.tuaw.com/2011/04/08/quickpick-update-in-limbo-for... The original version of the app is still up on the Store, but the update was rejected. Which is confusing.

rbanffy 15y ago

Not much unless OSX achieves higher market share than its competition or people on other platforms start to use Safari instead of their preferred browsers. That won't happen anytime soon. I'd be more worried about a feature like this coming to Mobile Safari.

cmchien 15y ago

Re: the Starbucks effect, I'm not sure I agree. I think the difference between Starbucks moving in next door and Apple implementing a feature like Reading List is that in the case of Starbucks moving in next door, their marketing drives foot traffic to the vicinity of your location--which you can then take advantage of. I.e., people walking by see your signage and therefore you can capture sales. It is the creation of demand, but it's the creation of demand that your own (much less resourced marketing) can then take advantage of. In the Reading List case, there's no guarantee that customers that "get educated" about the product will necessarily ever find out about yours. It's still up to you to be in the same "location" as the competitor's product in order to benefit from their marketing. This may be the case for very well-known products that are always going to be discussed in concert with a feature launched by an Apple in the media, product reviews, etc. But it's certainly not categorically the case.

benmichael 15y ago

If Apple brings this out, it wont have an API. They may promise one (like facetime) but Instapaper will still be #1 for at least another 12 months.

originalgeek 15y ago

Dude has a much better attitude about it than some other guys who ended up in a similar situation. (The Konfabulator tantrum comes to mind)