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First off, I’m just relaying information that I found interesting. Relax and try to have an interesting conversation rather than win an internet point. I think

First off, I’m just relaying information that I found interesting. Relax and try to have an interesting conversation rather than win an internet point. I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. It’s also probably worth noting the religious aspect of it - people in religions sometimes seem willing to sacrifice their life for their gods, so I’m not 100% sure that the sacrifice victims or society didn’t get something out of it. In fact, they got the same thing as Europe - a tighter societal bond. That being said, we know so little about the Aztecs compared to Europe that it would be impossible to make an informed if absurd decision as to which way I would want to be executed.

whatshisface 6y ago
>I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suicidal cult than it is to visit the doctor's office. >we know so little about the Aztecs compared to Europe that it would be impossible to make an informed if absurd decision as to which way I would want to be executed. The reason you'd want to pick the justice system is that justice systems, even when imperfect, can still declare innocent people innocent. A justice system sometimes makes mistakes, the Aztec temple only made mistakes.
- lotsofcows 6y ago
  Seem's a little disrespectful of others' belief systems. How can you possibly know that the God's sacrifices were a "mistake"?
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    Ancient religions had not evolved to be unfalsifiable like modern ones have. The Aztecs believed that they could get something by earning favor - and since they weren't actually getting anything, they were factually wrong in a way no modern religion can manage.
    - lnanek2 6y ago
      Is it true the Aztecs didn't get anything, though? A religion sacrificing people is a show of power likely to keep any common citizens rebelling against the priesthood. In modern times we have police kneeling on the necks of people until they die from lack of air. Both are just a means to kill powerless people to keep the powerful people in power. Our modern rulers put non-religious names on things, like "The War on Drugs", but it's the same thing.
    - idolaspecus 6y ago
      I in general agree with most of your points in this thread and disagree with the claim that you've been disrespectful (to GP and to the Aztecs :)), but I do think there's an interesting and important space between your idea re. Aztec rituals and those who'd say your view is "disrespectful". It's plausible, in my opinion, that evaluating the Aztecs' ritual sacrifice practice in terms of the modern scientific POV leads to a categorically incorrect analysis. I.e. the questions--whether the Aztec gods exist, whether unfalsifiable claims "make sense" or can be operative, etc--might not be relevant or interesting. I.e. the function describing the relationship between how closely our actions align with true facts as we understand them intellectually and broad outcomes in quality of life (defined however you want) is almost certainly not monotonic. I guess in short all I'm saying is that our conscious, intellectual understanding of the world is not the only useful motivator. And I don't mean this in some sort of supernatural, metaphysical, spiritual way: I mean that objectively rational behavior sometimes results from subjectively irrational behavior.
- 1-more 6y ago
  I'd line the Aztecs up against the witch purges of Europe. > Prosecutions for the crime of witchcraft reached a highpoint from 1580 to 1630 during the Counter-Reformation and the European wars of religion, when an estimated 50,000 people were burned at the stake, of which roughly 80% were women, and most often over the age of 40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_mode...
  - nyolfen 6y ago
    there were roughly this many skulls arranged into towers in front of the main temple at tenochtitlan. not bad for a single city-state
    - 1-more 6y ago
      Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here. Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The-horror-Aztec-tower-skulls-revealed.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The-...
      - nyolfen 6y ago
        the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries. the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge. the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of people a year; i do not think it is as outlandish as it may sound. the aztecs were a truly, historically, uniquely bloodthirsty people.
        ch4s3 6y ago

whatshisface 6y ago

>I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suicidal cult than it is to visit the doctor's office. >we know so little about the Aztecs compared to Europe that it would be impossible to make an informed if absurd decision as to which way I would want to be executed. The reason you'd want to pick the justice system is that justice systems, even when imperfect, can still declare innocent people innocent. A justice system sometimes makes mistakes, the Aztec temple only made mistakes.

lotsofcows 6y ago
Seem's a little disrespectful of others' belief systems. How can you possibly know that the God's sacrifices were a "mistake"?
- whatshisface 6y ago
  Ancient religions had not evolved to be unfalsifiable like modern ones have. The Aztecs believed that they could get something by earning favor - and since they weren't actually getting anything, they were factually wrong in a way no modern religion can manage.
  - lnanek2 6y ago
    Is it true the Aztecs didn't get anything, though? A religion sacrificing people is a show of power likely to keep any common citizens rebelling against the priesthood. In modern times we have police kneeling on the necks of people until they die from lack of air. Both are just a means to kill powerless people to keep the powerful people in power. Our modern rulers put non-religious names on things, like "The War on Drugs", but it's the same thing.
  - idolaspecus 6y ago
    I in general agree with most of your points in this thread and disagree with the claim that you've been disrespectful (to GP and to the Aztecs :)), but I do think there's an interesting and important space between your idea re. Aztec rituals and those who'd say your view is "disrespectful". It's plausible, in my opinion, that evaluating the Aztecs' ritual sacrifice practice in terms of the modern scientific POV leads to a categorically incorrect analysis. I.e. the questions--whether the Aztec gods exist, whether unfalsifiable claims "make sense" or can be operative, etc--might not be relevant or interesting. I.e. the function describing the relationship between how closely our actions align with true facts as we understand them intellectually and broad outcomes in quality of life (defined however you want) is almost certainly not monotonic. I guess in short all I'm saying is that our conscious, intellectual understanding of the world is not the only useful motivator. And I don't mean this in some sort of supernatural, metaphysical, spiritual way: I mean that objectively rational behavior sometimes results from subjectively irrational behavior.
1-more 6y ago
I'd line the Aztecs up against the witch purges of Europe. > Prosecutions for the crime of witchcraft reached a highpoint from 1580 to 1630 during the Counter-Reformation and the European wars of religion, when an estimated 50,000 people were burned at the stake, of which roughly 80% were women, and most often over the age of 40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_mode...
- nyolfen 6y ago
  there were roughly this many skulls arranged into towers in front of the main temple at tenochtitlan. not bad for a single city-state
  - 1-more 6y ago
    Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here. Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The-horror-Aztec-tower-skulls-revealed.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The-...
    - nyolfen 6y ago
      the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries. the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge. the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of people a year; i do not think it is as outlandish as it may sound. the aztecs were a truly, historically, uniquely bloodthirsty people.
      - ch4s3 6y ago