5 ms·

Besides standardising NVME storage for games to rely on, I'm the most excited about SONY's HRTF [1] implementation for the PS5 [2]. It's something I've been wai

by 0-_-0 6y ago

Besides standardising NVME storage for games to rely on, I'm the most excited about SONY's HRTF [1] implementation for the PS5 [2]. It's something I've been waiting for years for someone to implement for computer games, and it could be a game changer for audio. Listen to this [3] with good headphones to see (well, hear) what I'm talking about, better with higher volume. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function [2] https://youtu.be/sSmWIR-D6ro?t=2526 https://youtu.be/sSmWIR-D6ro?t=2526 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYdIidUIbAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYdIidUIbAs

kevincox 6y ago
I might have missed something but they say the HRTF is unique per-person. They mention collecting the pattern from one person using specialized equipment but then just straight to "using an HRTF". How does this apply to a consumer console like the PS5? Are they going to sample a lot of people and use some sort of average? Or is there some way to define it per-listener?
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  While HRTFs are unique per person, there's still a lot of similarity. You can use a "one size fits all" HRTF and still get quite good results, and a small menu of options is essentially sufficient.
  - pastrami_panda 6y ago
    Exactly, interestingly I remember Michael Abrash recounting when he was demoed personalized HRTF for the first time. They put headphones on him and sat him in a chair. A person started walking around him in circles holding a small speaker. But it was obviously a trick, the sound didn't come from the speaker but the headphones - but according to his account it was indistinguishable from the real thing. He was astounded when the person walking around him stopped but the audio remained circling around him. Personalized HRTF is a game changer.
- Kipters 6y ago
  No, they'll have a set of pre-made HRTFs and then use a listening test to pick the most appropriate one for the user https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph8LyNIT9sg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph8LyNIT9sg
dnhz 6y ago
Counter strike has HRTF. It’s nice.
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
PC gaming had positional audio with not just HRTF's but also reflections raytraced in the 90s from Aureal. These chips/cards were indeed quite high quality, and reasonably priced at the time. Aureal was sued into bankruptcy by a patent lawsuit from Creative. Creative was able to buy the company out of bankruptcy court, before the patent case was even resolved, and promptly shuttered it, along with removing all drivers and support materials from the internet. Their competing hardware at the time was considerably inferior: just a reverb filter with some tuning knobs.
- rasz 6y ago
  Patent lawsuit by Creative over technology Creative copied from Aureal :/ Carmack intended to implement pure software 3D audio in Doom 3, but Creative threatened with a patent lawsuit over stencil shadows. Result was EAX support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_3#Release https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_3#Release
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    I didn't know that one. Sigh. Creative truly is a loathsome company.
- Bancakes 6y ago
  To add to that, you can now emulate EAX on any sound card via OpenAL Soft[1] and DSOAL[2]. Effectively turning any old game into HRTF. You can even run your custom HRTF profiles. [1] https://www.openal-soft.org/ https://www.openal-soft.org/ [2] https://github.com/kcat/dsoal https://github.com/kcat/dsoal
- ksec 6y ago
  >Aureal was sued into bankruptcy Well they won the lawsuit. But the Lawsuit cost was way too high. Not to mention Sound Card wasn't that important at the time, and PC Gaming Market was Tiny, as compared to today. Even Creative themselves lose as market shift to RealTek Audio. I am said all these great thing happened in the 90s, 3DFx and Glide, along with Aureal 3D all lost.
andor 6y ago
HRTF technology for computer games has been available since the 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureal_Semiconductor#A3D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureal_Semiconductor#A3D
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  Not nearly at the level that the PS5 is promising. They quote a computational requirement that's equivalent to 2 Ryzen cores.
lentil_soup 6y ago
HRTF is now quite common with VR games since it's guaranteed that you'll be using headphones. I've had to implement it for a couple of titles and the result is quite nice as the audio positioning matches your head movement.
nefasti 6y ago
I wonder if we could hack/mod the airpod pro to gain access to their internal microphone, we could use it to create our own HRTF head model, probably what apple is doing to enable their version of spatial audio
pier25 6y ago
For games? I wish it could be used for movies. I'd buy a PS5 just to be able to watch movies if it had a good surround to HRTF conversion.

by 0-_-0 6y ago

kevincox 6y ago

I might have missed something but they say the HRTF is unique per-person. They mention collecting the pattern from one person using specialized equipment but then just straight to "using an HRTF". How does this apply to a consumer console like the PS5? Are they going to sample a lot of people and use some sort of average? Or is there some way to define it per-listener?

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
While HRTFs are unique per person, there's still a lot of similarity. You can use a "one size fits all" HRTF and still get quite good results, and a small menu of options is essentially sufficient.
- pastrami_panda 6y ago
  Exactly, interestingly I remember Michael Abrash recounting when he was demoed personalized HRTF for the first time. They put headphones on him and sat him in a chair. A person started walking around him in circles holding a small speaker. But it was obviously a trick, the sound didn't come from the speaker but the headphones - but according to his account it was indistinguishable from the real thing. He was astounded when the person walking around him stopped but the audio remained circling around him. Personalized HRTF is a game changer.
Kipters 6y ago
No, they'll have a set of pre-made HRTFs and then use a listening test to pick the most appropriate one for the user https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph8LyNIT9sg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph8LyNIT9sg

dnhz 6y ago

Counter strike has HRTF. It’s nice.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

PC gaming had positional audio with not just HRTF's but also reflections raytraced in the 90s from Aureal. These chips/cards were indeed quite high quality, and reasonably priced at the time. Aureal was sued into bankruptcy by a patent lawsuit from Creative. Creative was able to buy the company out of bankruptcy court, before the patent case was even resolved, and promptly shuttered it, along with removing all drivers and support materials from the internet. Their competing hardware at the time was considerably inferior: just a reverb filter with some tuning knobs.

rasz 6y ago
Patent lawsuit by Creative over technology Creative copied from Aureal :/ Carmack intended to implement pure software 3D audio in Doom 3, but Creative threatened with a patent lawsuit over stencil shadows. Result was EAX support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_3#Release https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_3#Release
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  I didn't know that one. Sigh. Creative truly is a loathsome company.
Bancakes 6y ago
To add to that, you can now emulate EAX on any sound card via OpenAL Soft[1] and DSOAL[2]. Effectively turning any old game into HRTF. You can even run your custom HRTF profiles. [1] https://www.openal-soft.org/ https://www.openal-soft.org/ [2] https://github.com/kcat/dsoal https://github.com/kcat/dsoal
ksec 6y ago
>Aureal was sued into bankruptcy Well they won the lawsuit. But the Lawsuit cost was way too high. Not to mention Sound Card wasn't that important at the time, and PC Gaming Market was Tiny, as compared to today. Even Creative themselves lose as market shift to RealTek Audio. I am said all these great thing happened in the 90s, 3DFx and Glide, along with Aureal 3D all lost.

andor 6y ago

HRTF technology for computer games has been available since the 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureal_Semiconductor#A3D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureal_Semiconductor#A3D

0-_-0 6y ago
Not nearly at the level that the PS5 is promising. They quote a computational requirement that's equivalent to 2 Ryzen cores.

lentil_soup 6y ago

HRTF is now quite common with VR games since it's guaranteed that you'll be using headphones. I've had to implement it for a couple of titles and the result is quite nice as the audio positioning matches your head movement.

nefasti 6y ago

I wonder if we could hack/mod the airpod pro to gain access to their internal microphone, we could use it to create our own HRTF head model, probably what apple is doing to enable their version of spatial audio

pier25 6y ago

For games? I wish it could be used for movies. I'd buy a PS5 just to be able to watch movies if it had a good surround to HRTF conversion.