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And do it in a non native language. In Germany my friends spoke very good English, but there were still times they'd sound like the drunken ramblings of a nati

And do it in a non native language. In Germany my friends spoke very good English, but there were still times they'd sound like the drunken ramblings of a native speaker. Only later on I'd realize the points they were trying to make and that they were running rings around me intellectually, just having trouble expressing it. That experience has left me more or less giving a free pass to ESL speakers saying things that sound dumb, especially when it's off the cuff.

arcticbull 6y ago
It’s what he was saying — not how, in particular the part where he believed machines were incapable of being smarter than humans, because if you try to compete with them in an area they’re good at you’re dumb for doing that. He then contradicted himself by using the example of a human in a foot race with a car. Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. If I thought this was at all a language or communication issue I’d never have posted it.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  Well he sounds to me like he was struggling. Very much so. If I didn't think he was, I wouldn't have posted what I did either. I agree the points he was making were vapid, and I stopped watching fairly quickly because of it. Maybe he really is an idiot, but I don't think this video was at all conclusive proof.
- yorwba 6y ago
  > It’s what he was saying — not how You also need to take into account to whom he was saying it. Although they were ostensibly talking to each other, Musk was speaking to the fears of Americans afraid their jobs might get automated, while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Consequently, their definition of "smart" is not the same. Musk equates smartness with being good at your job, while Ma thinks it's better to be "street smart" and let someone else do the work for you. Or in the car vs. human example, why try to outrun it if you could be sitting in the driver's seat? > Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. I thought that was a clever riff on Musk's somewhat awkward "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. > To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker. That said, I did think he was communicating quite clearly, but since my understanding appears to be quite different from yours, maybe that's just a reflection of our different expectations. On the other hand, if the event was specifically organized so that they could speak past each other and endear themselves to their respective audiences, it was a genius move.
  - Danieru 6y ago
    > "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. Oh neat, a pun which works both in Japanese and Chinese.
  - SkyMarshal 6y ago
    >while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Why do Chinese want their jobs to be automated?
    - yorwba 6y ago
      For the same reason that a farmer wants a tractor and a seamstress wants a sewing machine. Controlling the machines that do the work is less exhausting and higher-status than doing the work yourself. Of course not all Chinese think like that, but an optimist view of future technology seems much more prevalent in Chinese-language media than in the English-speaking world. Maybe that's because China is still at a relatively low level of industrial automation and trying to catch up to advanced manufacturing economies like Japan or Germany with their "Made in China 2025" initiative. And the overall optimism doesn't mean there aren't also critical voices, worried that instead it will be the machines controlling the humans who do the work. E.g. Renwu recently published an article about delivery drivers struggling to meet the deadlines set by the system, which you can read translated into English by Jeffrey Ding here: https://chinai.substack.com/p/chinai-111-algorithms-and-food-delivery https://chinai.substack.com/p/chinai-111-algorithms-and-food...
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      This is something that confuses me about Americans. Why on earth wouldn't everyone want their job automated? The only thing we should be discussing is how you fairly distribute the proceeds in a world where humans don't need to work.
      - ls612 6y ago
        Because from a realpolitik/game theory perspective if your existence doesn’t contribute any sort of value to others/society there’s little incentive for others/society to keep you around. And that always ends in a very ugly way.
- divbzero 6y ago
  I think words chosen can still affect content and persuasiveness. I've heard Jack Ma speak in person and the most convincing bit was a segment where he switched back to Chinese. That said, I agree that Jack Ma is far from as technical as Elon Musk, and still consider his spin-off of Alipay (Ant) from Alibaba to be very questionable from a corporate governance standpoint.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ciarannolan 6y ago
Jack Ma taught English at the university level [1]. He wasn't struggling for words, he's just not as smart as some had assumed. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma-alibaba-bio/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma...
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  As a sibling reply pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean as much as you think it means.
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    Can you link it please? I'm not seeing it.
    - reitzensteinm 6y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 For what it's worth this matches my own limited experience from the early 2000s.
      - ciarannolan 6y ago
        Thanks! Relevant from other comment: > I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker.
programmertote 6y ago
100% this. As a English-as-a-second-language speaker, there are times when I wish I could speak up and express my thoughts/emotions in a way that is palatable to the audience (native English speakers), but decided to stay quiet because I am not sure if it'll come out right or because my brain cannot process fast enough to speak fluently/eloquently. I consider myself fairly decent in English vocabulary and reading (not bragging but scored 720 out of 800 in both SAT and GRE verbal), but I still cannot do as well as native speakers in expressing my concerns/opinions during business meetings. Sometimes, I wish the tables are turned so that I can speak my native language and am able to make persuasive arguments in discussions. Language barrier is real and I am guessing some English speakers may never understand/empathize with the non-native speakers.

arcticbull 6y ago

It’s what he was saying — not how, in particular the part where he believed machines were incapable of being smarter than humans, because if you try to compete with them in an area they’re good at you’re dumb for doing that. He then contradicted himself by using the example of a human in a foot race with a car. Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. If I thought this was at all a language or communication issue I’d never have posted it.

reitzensteinm 6y ago
Well he sounds to me like he was struggling. Very much so. If I didn't think he was, I wouldn't have posted what I did either. I agree the points he was making were vapid, and I stopped watching fairly quickly because of it. Maybe he really is an idiot, but I don't think this video was at all conclusive proof.
yorwba 6y ago
> It’s what he was saying — not how You also need to take into account to whom he was saying it. Although they were ostensibly talking to each other, Musk was speaking to the fears of Americans afraid their jobs might get automated, while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Consequently, their definition of "smart" is not the same. Musk equates smartness with being good at your job, while Ma thinks it's better to be "street smart" and let someone else do the work for you. Or in the car vs. human example, why try to outrun it if you could be sitting in the driver's seat? > Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. I thought that was a clever riff on Musk's somewhat awkward "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. > To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker. That said, I did think he was communicating quite clearly, but since my understanding appears to be quite different from yours, maybe that's just a reflection of our different expectations. On the other hand, if the event was specifically organized so that they could speak past each other and endear themselves to their respective audiences, it was a genius move.
- Danieru 6y ago
  > "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. Oh neat, a pun which works both in Japanese and Chinese.
- SkyMarshal 6y ago
  >while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Why do Chinese want their jobs to be automated?
  - yorwba 6y ago
    For the same reason that a farmer wants a tractor and a seamstress wants a sewing machine. Controlling the machines that do the work is less exhausting and higher-status than doing the work yourself. Of course not all Chinese think like that, but an optimist view of future technology seems much more prevalent in Chinese-language media than in the English-speaking world. Maybe that's because China is still at a relatively low level of industrial automation and trying to catch up to advanced manufacturing economies like Japan or Germany with their "Made in China 2025" initiative. And the overall optimism doesn't mean there aren't also critical voices, worried that instead it will be the machines controlling the humans who do the work. E.g. Renwu recently published an article about delivery drivers struggling to meet the deadlines set by the system, which you can read translated into English by Jeffrey Ding here: https://chinai.substack.com/p/chinai-111-algorithms-and-food-delivery https://chinai.substack.com/p/chinai-111-algorithms-and-food...
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    This is something that confuses me about Americans. Why on earth wouldn't everyone want their job automated? The only thing we should be discussing is how you fairly distribute the proceeds in a world where humans don't need to work.
    - ls612 6y ago
      Because from a realpolitik/game theory perspective if your existence doesn’t contribute any sort of value to others/society there’s little incentive for others/society to keep you around. And that always ends in a very ugly way.
divbzero 6y ago
I think words chosen can still affect content and persuasiveness. I've heard Jack Ma speak in person and the most convincing bit was a segment where he switched back to Chinese. That said, I agree that Jack Ma is far from as technical as Elon Musk, and still consider his spin-off of Alipay (Ant) from Alibaba to be very questionable from a corporate governance standpoint.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ciarannolan 6y ago

Jack Ma taught English at the university level [1]. He wasn't struggling for words, he's just not as smart as some had assumed. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma-alibaba-bio/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma...

reitzensteinm 6y ago
As a sibling reply pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean as much as you think it means.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  Can you link it please? I'm not seeing it.
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 For what it's worth this matches my own limited experience from the early 2000s.
    - ciarannolan 6y ago
      Thanks! Relevant from other comment: > I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker.

programmertote 6y ago

100% this. As a English-as-a-second-language speaker, there are times when I wish I could speak up and express my thoughts/emotions in a way that is palatable to the audience (native English speakers), but decided to stay quiet because I am not sure if it'll come out right or because my brain cannot process fast enough to speak fluently/eloquently. I consider myself fairly decent in English vocabulary and reading (not bragging but scored 720 out of 800 in both SAT and GRE verbal), but I still cannot do as well as native speakers in expressing my concerns/opinions during business meetings. Sometimes, I wish the tables are turned so that I can speak my native language and am able to make persuasive arguments in discussions. Language barrier is real and I am guessing some English speakers may never understand/empathize with the non-native speakers.