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It's extremely difficult to say that Jack Ma is an idiot because of his discussion with Elon Musk. Jack Ma has to play a parallel game of high-stakes political

It's extremely difficult to say that Jack Ma is an idiot because of his discussion with Elon Musk. Jack Ma has to play a parallel game of high-stakes political poker.

reitzensteinm 6y ago
And do it in a non native language. In Germany my friends spoke very good English, but there were still times they'd sound like the drunken ramblings of a native speaker. Only later on I'd realize the points they were trying to make and that they were running rings around me intellectually, just having trouble expressing it. That experience has left me more or less giving a free pass to ESL speakers saying things that sound dumb, especially when it's off the cuff.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  It’s what he was saying — not how, in particular the part where he believed machines were incapable of being smarter than humans, because if you try to compete with them in an area they’re good at you’re dumb for doing that. He then contradicted himself by using the example of a human in a foot race with a car. Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. If I thought this was at all a language or communication issue I’d never have posted it.
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    Well he sounds to me like he was struggling. Very much so. If I didn't think he was, I wouldn't have posted what I did either. I agree the points he was making were vapid, and I stopped watching fairly quickly because of it. Maybe he really is an idiot, but I don't think this video was at all conclusive proof.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    > It’s what he was saying — not how You also need to take into account to whom he was saying it. Although they were ostensibly talking to each other, Musk was speaking to the fears of Americans afraid their jobs might get automated, while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Consequently, their definition of "smart" is not the same. Musk equates smartness with being good at your job, while Ma thinks it's better to be "street smart" and let someone else do the work for you. Or in the car vs. human example, why try to outrun it if you could be sitting in the driver's seat? > Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. I thought that was a clever riff on Musk's somewhat awkward "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. > To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker. That said, I did think he was communicating quite clearly, but since my understanding appears to be quite different from yours, maybe that's just a reflection of our different expectations. On the other hand, if the event was specifically organized so that they could speak past each other and endear themselves to their respective audiences, it was a genius move.
    - Danieru 6y ago
      > "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. Oh neat, a pun which works both in Japanese and Chinese.
    - SkyMarshal 6y ago
      >while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Why do Chinese want their jobs to be automated?
      - 6y ago
  - divbzero 6y ago
    I think words chosen can still affect content and persuasiveness. I've heard Jack Ma speak in person and the most convincing bit was a segment where he switched back to Chinese. That said, I agree that Jack Ma is far from as technical as Elon Musk, and still consider his spin-off of Alipay (Ant) from Alibaba to be very questionable from a corporate governance standpoint.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  Jack Ma taught English at the university level [1]. He wasn't struggling for words, he's just not as smart as some had assumed. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma-alibaba-bio/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma...
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    As a sibling reply pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean as much as you think it means.
    - ciarannolan 6y ago
      Can you link it please? I'm not seeing it.
      - reitzensteinm 6y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 For what it's worth this matches my own limited experience from the early 2000s.
        ciarannolan 6y ago
        Thanks! Relevant from other comment: > I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker.
- programmertote 6y ago
  100% this. As a English-as-a-second-language speaker, there are times when I wish I could speak up and express my thoughts/emotions in a way that is palatable to the audience (native English speakers), but decided to stay quiet because I am not sure if it'll come out right or because my brain cannot process fast enough to speak fluently/eloquently. I consider myself fairly decent in English vocabulary and reading (not bragging but scored 720 out of 800 in both SAT and GRE verbal), but I still cannot do as well as native speakers in expressing my concerns/opinions during business meetings. Sometimes, I wish the tables are turned so that I can speak my native language and am able to make persuasive arguments in discussions. Language barrier is real and I am guessing some English speakers may never understand/empathize with the non-native speakers.
not_a_moth 6y ago
Given that Jack Ma has been a member of the CCP since the 80s [1] I think his success has come a lot easier than Western entrepreneurs [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/27/alibabas-jack-ma-has-been-communist-party-member-since-1980s.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/27/alibabas-jack-ma-has-been-co...
- dragonelite 6y ago
  Does it really matters, i mean US industrial/tech giants all donate to the parties to get some advantage nationally and globally? Should we be questioning western CEO political affiliations and donations when talking about their companies?
  - indigochill 6y ago
    > Should we be questioning western CEO political affiliations and donations when talking about their companies? Absolutely. Political affiliations speak to the philosophy of the CEO and, by proxy, how they'll lead their company. E.g. Palantir is behaving exactly as expected given Peter Thiel's politics.
- manigandham 6y ago
  What's that actually mean? Does he even have a choice to not be a member? What are the chances this is rewritten history for PR?
  - dmix 6y ago
    I read in a book about China by New Yorker magazines China expert [1] and he said that up to a third of Chinese citizens are either party members, part of youth groups, or work directly for a CCP owned company. So it’s not everyone but it’s a lot. The actual CCP membership itself is much lower though. It’s more like an octopus in their society. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth/dp/0374535272/ https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth/dp...
    - 6y ago
malux85 6y ago
Jack Ma is an idiot, and he’s just surrounded himself with a bunch of yes men, who can buffer the operational, legal, financial systems that run his empire and mostly protect him ... but his true nature comes out when he’s required to engage in 1:1 discussion with anyone great. At that point there’s no filter directly to his consciousness and it’s clear, from that video, that’s he’s a total moron.
- baybal2 6y ago
  I knew some people who worked in Alibaba at around the time when Ma started to handing over duties to Tsai, and Zhang. All say the company was actually much better run when Ma was managing company day to day, than when after Tsai took over operations, and himself just hired tons of "pro managers" to hand over errands. At around this time (2012-2013), Tsai decided to show how much of a serious tech exec he was..., and he came with idea to do what big boy do, and rewrite all of Alibaba's core code into one True Enterprise Grade Java MegaFramework of Doom. And it was at that time when their website quality started to fall off a cliff, and they started loosing talented people who were off-put by Tsai's management... I'd say Aliexpress was much better at the time of it launch, than it is now. Alibaba, and 1688 had an even more dramatic loss of quality, and vendor oversight. P.S. People talk about party affiliation of Ma from him joining the part to be allowed to teach in eighties, while forgetting that Tsai does not even hide his affiliation with the United Front (an organisation for CPC's version of "useful idiots,)" and is a much more outspoken political player, and party appologist.
  - projektfu 6y ago
    I’ve never really understood how one can use Alibaba effectively. It’s mostly spam from middlemen who lie about having their own factories. It must be a full time, specialized job being a purchasing manager who can use the platform.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      The thing is, their search used to be much better, and they had much better spam control before.

It's extremely difficult to say that Jack Ma is an idiot because of his discussion with Elon Musk. Jack Ma has to play a parallel game of high-stakes political poker.

reitzensteinm 6y ago

And do it in a non native language. In Germany my friends spoke very good English, but there were still times they'd sound like the drunken ramblings of a native speaker. Only later on I'd realize the points they were trying to make and that they were running rings around me intellectually, just having trouble expressing it. That experience has left me more or less giving a free pass to ESL speakers saying things that sound dumb, especially when it's off the cuff.

arcticbull 6y ago
It’s what he was saying — not how, in particular the part where he believed machines were incapable of being smarter than humans, because if you try to compete with them in an area they’re good at you’re dumb for doing that. He then contradicted himself by using the example of a human in a foot race with a car. Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. If I thought this was at all a language or communication issue I’d never have posted it.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  Well he sounds to me like he was struggling. Very much so. If I didn't think he was, I wouldn't have posted what I did either. I agree the points he was making were vapid, and I stopped watching fairly quickly because of it. Maybe he really is an idiot, but I don't think this video was at all conclusive proof.
- yorwba 6y ago
  > It’s what he was saying — not how You also need to take into account to whom he was saying it. Although they were ostensibly talking to each other, Musk was speaking to the fears of Americans afraid their jobs might get automated, while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Consequently, their definition of "smart" is not the same. Musk equates smartness with being good at your job, while Ma thinks it's better to be "street smart" and let someone else do the work for you. Or in the car vs. human example, why try to outrun it if you could be sitting in the driver's seat? > Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways. I thought that was a clever riff on Musk's somewhat awkward "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. > To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO. I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker. That said, I did think he was communicating quite clearly, but since my understanding appears to be quite different from yours, maybe that's just a reflection of our different expectations. On the other hand, if the event was specifically organized so that they could speak past each other and endear themselves to their respective audiences, it was a genius move.
  - Danieru 6y ago
    > "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter. Oh neat, a pun which works both in Japanese and Chinese.
  - SkyMarshal 6y ago
    >while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated. Why do Chinese want their jobs to be automated?
    - 6y ago
- divbzero 6y ago
  I think words chosen can still affect content and persuasiveness. I've heard Jack Ma speak in person and the most convincing bit was a segment where he switched back to Chinese. That said, I agree that Jack Ma is far from as technical as Elon Musk, and still consider his spin-off of Alipay (Ant) from Alibaba to be very questionable from a corporate governance standpoint.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ciarannolan 6y ago
Jack Ma taught English at the university level [1]. He wasn't struggling for words, he's just not as smart as some had assumed. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma-alibaba-bio/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma...
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  As a sibling reply pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean as much as you think it means.
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    Can you link it please? I'm not seeing it.
    - reitzensteinm 6y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975 For what it's worth this matches my own limited experience from the early 2000s.
      - ciarannolan 6y ago
        Thanks! Relevant from other comment: > I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker.
programmertote 6y ago
100% this. As a English-as-a-second-language speaker, there are times when I wish I could speak up and express my thoughts/emotions in a way that is palatable to the audience (native English speakers), but decided to stay quiet because I am not sure if it'll come out right or because my brain cannot process fast enough to speak fluently/eloquently. I consider myself fairly decent in English vocabulary and reading (not bragging but scored 720 out of 800 in both SAT and GRE verbal), but I still cannot do as well as native speakers in expressing my concerns/opinions during business meetings. Sometimes, I wish the tables are turned so that I can speak my native language and am able to make persuasive arguments in discussions. Language barrier is real and I am guessing some English speakers may never understand/empathize with the non-native speakers.

not_a_moth 6y ago

Given that Jack Ma has been a member of the CCP since the 80s [1] I think his success has come a lot easier than Western entrepreneurs [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/27/alibabas-jack-ma-has-been-communist-party-member-since-1980s.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/27/alibabas-jack-ma-has-been-co...

dragonelite 6y ago
Does it really matters, i mean US industrial/tech giants all donate to the parties to get some advantage nationally and globally? Should we be questioning western CEO political affiliations and donations when talking about their companies?
- indigochill 6y ago
  > Should we be questioning western CEO political affiliations and donations when talking about their companies? Absolutely. Political affiliations speak to the philosophy of the CEO and, by proxy, how they'll lead their company. E.g. Palantir is behaving exactly as expected given Peter Thiel's politics.
manigandham 6y ago
What's that actually mean? Does he even have a choice to not be a member? What are the chances this is rewritten history for PR?
- dmix 6y ago
  I read in a book about China by New Yorker magazines China expert [1] and he said that up to a third of Chinese citizens are either party members, part of youth groups, or work directly for a CCP owned company. So it’s not everyone but it’s a lot. The actual CCP membership itself is much lower though. It’s more like an octopus in their society. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth/dp/0374535272/ https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth/dp...
  - 6y ago

malux85 6y ago

Jack Ma is an idiot, and he’s just surrounded himself with a bunch of yes men, who can buffer the operational, legal, financial systems that run his empire and mostly protect him ... but his true nature comes out when he’s required to engage in 1:1 discussion with anyone great. At that point there’s no filter directly to his consciousness and it’s clear, from that video, that’s he’s a total moron.

baybal2 6y ago
I knew some people who worked in Alibaba at around the time when Ma started to handing over duties to Tsai, and Zhang. All say the company was actually much better run when Ma was managing company day to day, than when after Tsai took over operations, and himself just hired tons of "pro managers" to hand over errands. At around this time (2012-2013), Tsai decided to show how much of a serious tech exec he was..., and he came with idea to do what big boy do, and rewrite all of Alibaba's core code into one True Enterprise Grade Java MegaFramework of Doom. And it was at that time when their website quality started to fall off a cliff, and they started loosing talented people who were off-put by Tsai's management... I'd say Aliexpress was much better at the time of it launch, than it is now. Alibaba, and 1688 had an even more dramatic loss of quality, and vendor oversight. P.S. People talk about party affiliation of Ma from him joining the part to be allowed to teach in eighties, while forgetting that Tsai does not even hide his affiliation with the United Front (an organisation for CPC's version of "useful idiots,)" and is a much more outspoken political player, and party appologist.
- projektfu 6y ago
  I’ve never really understood how one can use Alibaba effectively. It’s mostly spam from middlemen who lie about having their own factories. It must be a full time, specialized job being a purchasing manager who can use the platform.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    The thing is, their search used to be much better, and they had much better spam control before.