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I also can't get through Google recaptcha. Proxy services rotate their up blocks so you can't simply block them all. Captchas are in their infancy. We need to

by arbol 6y ago

I also can't get through Google recaptcha. Proxy services rotate their up blocks so you can't simply block them all. Captchas are in their infancy. We need to move beyond something that involves simply clicking to identify images - we're providing free training for AI, not to mention the fact that it's incredibly inconvenient for blind people. I think a measure of uniqueness is required based answers to questions that don't necessarily have correct answers. The distance between the question and answer would be the measure. Identifying questions that provide consistent distances for individuals would be the hard thing.

throwaway3699 6y ago
Captcha have audio versions for the blind, no?
- y7 6y ago
  They're usually inaccessible if the system already suspects you of being a bot.
- akalsz 6y ago
  Yes, and it's absolutely solvable by bots (there's even a browser plugin for it[1]) so it isn't available if Google decides you are one. But it does work if you aren't that suspicious, so most of the time it should let blind users through. Well it's a bit more complicated because there are scores and such, but from an end-user perspective that's how it usually works. Though if you aren't considered suspicious, image captchas are way less ridiculous, too. The scoring system goes all the way from .1 to .9, but usually you're either in one or the other category based on who knows what (probably mostly ip addresses, but Google doesn't tell us so who knows?). So in the end the service is mostly just something that arbitrarily classifies users as one or the other, bots can absolutely solve them when classified as "probably human" and they're impossible for humans when classified as "probably bot". If you want to actually present users a challenge to verify they're human, you're even better off giving them something like captchouli[2], or just a good old scrambled letters on a picture thing (which is what Google uses for their login as well, BTW). hCaptcha is also a great alternative (anything is, really) since it's still mostly about classifying users by making suspicious ones solve challenges. reCAPTCHA is absolutely not, it judges you before the challenge. And that's fine, some websites want that. It's their choice, I'm not mad if they ban me for not wanting to be tracked, it's probably for the better. What does make me angry is that reCAPTCHA is advertised falsely, that the challenge is a joke and a crime against humanity at once, and that despite that, people seem to believe that it's the challenge that is magically blocking the bots without realizing they're also blocking legitimate users. [1]: https://github.com/dessant/buster https://github.com/dessant/buster [2]: https://github.com/bakape/captchouli https://github.com/bakape/captchouli
  - arbol 6y ago
    I like the idea of captchouli as it plays on the weaknesses of ML in differentiating between similar images. However, I still think advances in AI will force us to go further and use philosophical/psychological based captchas instead of pattern matching.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      I wouldn't be able to solve the example captcha. I've liked a few anime. GITS, Death Note, I believe that's about it. I would need to search for the solution. Now, you may argue that is no problem for visitors of an anime board, but I believe its going to scare new visitors away. Due to this, websites would be less inclusive. My guess about the future path is as follows: your government ID allows you to authenticate to generate a keypair you can use online for services such as Google and Facebook. It would include things such as a nickname, and an e-mail address as a derived public/private keypair you are able to use, including a scope (domain). Then, only such authenticated logins get full access (they are not going to phase this in like a wrecking ball, it would be slowly). Its perhaps a tad dystopian, but it has its pros and cons, and websites like GAB will continue to exist on darknet.
      - arbol 6y ago
        I had assumed in the anime captcha you were given an example of the character and told to identify all pictures of said character. Otherwise I couldn't do it. A centralised ID system is one solution for authentication online but it's far from ideal.
        GoblinSlayer 6y ago
        No, it's a well known character.
        arbol 6y ago
        That's probably a generous use of the term well known
- miki123211 6y ago
  for the english-speaking and not hard-of-hearing part of the blind population, yes. And the english speaking part is a pretty small one.

by arbol 6y ago

throwaway3699 6y ago

Captcha have audio versions for the blind, no?

y7 6y ago
They're usually inaccessible if the system already suspects you of being a bot.
akalsz 6y ago
Yes, and it's absolutely solvable by bots (there's even a browser plugin for it[1]) so it isn't available if Google decides you are one. But it does work if you aren't that suspicious, so most of the time it should let blind users through. Well it's a bit more complicated because there are scores and such, but from an end-user perspective that's how it usually works. Though if you aren't considered suspicious, image captchas are way less ridiculous, too. The scoring system goes all the way from .1 to .9, but usually you're either in one or the other category based on who knows what (probably mostly ip addresses, but Google doesn't tell us so who knows?). So in the end the service is mostly just something that arbitrarily classifies users as one or the other, bots can absolutely solve them when classified as "probably human" and they're impossible for humans when classified as "probably bot". If you want to actually present users a challenge to verify they're human, you're even better off giving them something like captchouli[2], or just a good old scrambled letters on a picture thing (which is what Google uses for their login as well, BTW). hCaptcha is also a great alternative (anything is, really) since it's still mostly about classifying users by making suspicious ones solve challenges. reCAPTCHA is absolutely not, it judges you before the challenge. And that's fine, some websites want that. It's their choice, I'm not mad if they ban me for not wanting to be tracked, it's probably for the better. What does make me angry is that reCAPTCHA is advertised falsely, that the challenge is a joke and a crime against humanity at once, and that despite that, people seem to believe that it's the challenge that is magically blocking the bots without realizing they're also blocking legitimate users. [1]: https://github.com/dessant/buster https://github.com/dessant/buster [2]: https://github.com/bakape/captchouli https://github.com/bakape/captchouli
- arbol 6y ago
  I like the idea of captchouli as it plays on the weaknesses of ML in differentiating between similar images. However, I still think advances in AI will force us to go further and use philosophical/psychological based captchas instead of pattern matching.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    I wouldn't be able to solve the example captcha. I've liked a few anime. GITS, Death Note, I believe that's about it. I would need to search for the solution. Now, you may argue that is no problem for visitors of an anime board, but I believe its going to scare new visitors away. Due to this, websites would be less inclusive. My guess about the future path is as follows: your government ID allows you to authenticate to generate a keypair you can use online for services such as Google and Facebook. It would include things such as a nickname, and an e-mail address as a derived public/private keypair you are able to use, including a scope (domain). Then, only such authenticated logins get full access (they are not going to phase this in like a wrecking ball, it would be slowly). Its perhaps a tad dystopian, but it has its pros and cons, and websites like GAB will continue to exist on darknet.
    - arbol 6y ago
      I had assumed in the anime captcha you were given an example of the character and told to identify all pictures of said character. Otherwise I couldn't do it. A centralised ID system is one solution for authentication online but it's far from ideal.
      - GoblinSlayer 6y ago
        No, it's a well known character.
        arbol 6y ago
        That's probably a generous use of the term well known
miki123211 6y ago
for the english-speaking and not hard-of-hearing part of the blind population, yes. And the english speaking part is a pretty small one.