5 ms·

So how did the designers solve the noise problem, if they solved it at all? Any kind of target guidance inside the gas bubble isn't happening, consequently the

So how did the designers solve the noise problem, if they solved it at all? Any kind of target guidance inside the gas bubble isn't happening, consequently the firing u-boat has to be sufficiently close to the target. Meanwhile, antisubmarine defenses are so good nowadays that a submarine that has been detected is as good as dead. Firing a supercavitating torpedo means you just went on a suicide mission.

varenc 6y ago
Aren’t torpedos fired from ships and planes as well? A plane dropping a torpedo wouldn’t care that it was loud and the high speed would ensure the target ship won’t have much time to get out of the way.
- nickff 6y ago
  Air-launched torpedoes are different from submarine-launched ones. The former are usually lighter, battery-powered, and almost exclusively employed against submarines. The latter are larger, often chemically powered, and used against both submerged and surface targets. Super-cavitation just isn't very helpful for air-launched torpedoes.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Torpedoes may also be launched from naval mines. An example is the Mark 60 CAPTOR, which is anchored to the sea floor where it waits for a target to shoot its Mark 46 (chemically powered) guided torpedo.
  - dmix 6y ago
    That's fascinating, there are so many modern weapon systems on wikipedia to keep up with. Modern naval warfare sounds like it would get extremely expensive loses really fast in any serious war situation. I know it's mostly peaceful and these ships are mostly used for power projection. But everything I've read about anti-ship missiles (even mostly from the 1970s era which I'm counting as modern) and swarming Iranian torpedo boats hitting aircraft carriers, it seems to be a giant waste of money - if actual modern combat was the goal. https://pando.com/2014/05/26/the-war-nerd-iran-is-building-a-fake-aircraft-carrier-how-can-you-tell/ https://pando.com/2014/05/26/the-war-nerd-iran-is-building-a... https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a30392654/millennium-challenge-qassem-soleimani/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a30392654/millenni...
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      There really hasn't ben full scale mass naval conflict since WW2. The Falkland Islands is the closest, and yes, anti-ship missiles proved quite potent. Keep in mind some of the articles about carrier vulnerability are just empty nonsense. Carriers don't operate alone. The air wing gives them an enormous area of awareness. The group always has multiple ships with AEGIS and plenty of defensive missiles. A combination of a submarine and anti-submarine helicopters protects them from subsurface attacks. It's an arms race, an important one, but it's not quite as one sided as some of these articles portray. Remember, improvements to missile technology helps defensive interception too.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        ...are just empty nonsense. Are they? From time to time one can read about some submarine "popping up" almost next to the carrier, after virtually have sunken it in some large training maneuver, in spite of all the stuff you mentioned. Folklore?
        JohnBooty 6y ago
        Parent poster said "some", not "all"....
        HarryHirsch 6y ago
        What you don't hear about much is underwater drones. I have no doubt that they exist, and a drone swarm, each drone armed with a few tons of conventional explosive is infinitely more politically palatable than a low-yield nuke to take out a carrier group.
- dralley 6y ago
  If we're talking about a plane attacking a ship, there are better and less risky ways to do that. Plus, the short range means that you'd have to fly so close to to the enemy that you would almost certainly be taken out by anti-air defenses first.
bigbubba 6y ago
In the case of the Soviet Va-111 Shkval, the intent was to fire the supercavitating torpedo at the enemy after the enemy already fired at you.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  Mutually assured destruction then.
  - sawjet 6y ago
    Many torpedoes are wire-guided. Using a fast, loud torpedo as a counter attack will make the enemy strongly consider cutting those wires and immediately changing course in effort to save themselves.
    - evgen 6y ago
      Wire-guided to get into the kill box, but once you cut the wires and the torpedo goes to active homing it is going to have a nice path to project back to the launch platform. Fixing this problem is just a software upgrade to the guidance package on a torpedo I would think.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    In addition to what sawjet mentioned with wire guided torpedos, I think they might also have hoped for the nuclear warhead the VA-111s originally had to destroy the incoming torpedo. By being particularly fast, the supercavitating torpedo may have intercepted the enemy torpedo soon enough for that to work.. maybe.
mcswell 6y ago
Why not a two stage torpedo to solve the problem of the launching submarine having to come close? First stage is a conventional (but maybe larger than usual) torpedo that drives--with guidance--from the sub into the 15km range, second stage is the supercavitating torpedo that goes that last 15km or so. Granted, that would require the submarine to have much longer torpedo tubes.
trhway 6y ago
>Any kind of target guidance inside the gas bubble isn't happening originally it was armed with nuclear warhead - you just needed to point it somewhere in the general direction of the target :)
- brudgers 6y ago
  The old saw is nuclear torpedoes always sink at least one ship.
  - airstrike 6y ago
    Brilliant

varenc 6y ago

Aren’t torpedos fired from ships and planes as well? A plane dropping a torpedo wouldn’t care that it was loud and the high speed would ensure the target ship won’t have much time to get out of the way.

nickff 6y ago
Air-launched torpedoes are different from submarine-launched ones. The former are usually lighter, battery-powered, and almost exclusively employed against submarines. The latter are larger, often chemically powered, and used against both submerged and surface targets. Super-cavitation just isn't very helpful for air-launched torpedoes.
bigbubba 6y ago
Torpedoes may also be launched from naval mines. An example is the Mark 60 CAPTOR, which is anchored to the sea floor where it waits for a target to shoot its Mark 46 (chemically powered) guided torpedo.
- dmix 6y ago
  That's fascinating, there are so many modern weapon systems on wikipedia to keep up with. Modern naval warfare sounds like it would get extremely expensive loses really fast in any serious war situation. I know it's mostly peaceful and these ships are mostly used for power projection. But everything I've read about anti-ship missiles (even mostly from the 1970s era which I'm counting as modern) and swarming Iranian torpedo boats hitting aircraft carriers, it seems to be a giant waste of money - if actual modern combat was the goal. https://pando.com/2014/05/26/the-war-nerd-iran-is-building-a-fake-aircraft-carrier-how-can-you-tell/ https://pando.com/2014/05/26/the-war-nerd-iran-is-building-a... https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a30392654/millennium-challenge-qassem-soleimani/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a30392654/millenni...
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    There really hasn't ben full scale mass naval conflict since WW2. The Falkland Islands is the closest, and yes, anti-ship missiles proved quite potent. Keep in mind some of the articles about carrier vulnerability are just empty nonsense. Carriers don't operate alone. The air wing gives them an enormous area of awareness. The group always has multiple ships with AEGIS and plenty of defensive missiles. A combination of a submarine and anti-submarine helicopters protects them from subsurface attacks. It's an arms race, an important one, but it's not quite as one sided as some of these articles portray. Remember, improvements to missile technology helps defensive interception too.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      ...are just empty nonsense. Are they? From time to time one can read about some submarine "popping up" almost next to the carrier, after virtually have sunken it in some large training maneuver, in spite of all the stuff you mentioned. Folklore?
      - JohnBooty 6y ago
        Parent poster said "some", not "all"....
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        What you don't hear about much is underwater drones. I have no doubt that they exist, and a drone swarm, each drone armed with a few tons of conventional explosive is infinitely more politically palatable than a low-yield nuke to take out a carrier group.
dralley 6y ago
If we're talking about a plane attacking a ship, there are better and less risky ways to do that. Plus, the short range means that you'd have to fly so close to to the enemy that you would almost certainly be taken out by anti-air defenses first.

bigbubba 6y ago

In the case of the Soviet Va-111 Shkval, the intent was to fire the supercavitating torpedo at the enemy after the enemy already fired at you.

HarryHirsch 6y ago
Mutually assured destruction then.
- sawjet 6y ago
  Many torpedoes are wire-guided. Using a fast, loud torpedo as a counter attack will make the enemy strongly consider cutting those wires and immediately changing course in effort to save themselves.
  - evgen 6y ago
    Wire-guided to get into the kill box, but once you cut the wires and the torpedo goes to active homing it is going to have a nice path to project back to the launch platform. Fixing this problem is just a software upgrade to the guidance package on a torpedo I would think.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  In addition to what sawjet mentioned with wire guided torpedos, I think they might also have hoped for the nuclear warhead the VA-111s originally had to destroy the incoming torpedo. By being particularly fast, the supercavitating torpedo may have intercepted the enemy torpedo soon enough for that to work.. maybe.

mcswell 6y ago

Why not a two stage torpedo to solve the problem of the launching submarine having to come close? First stage is a conventional (but maybe larger than usual) torpedo that drives--with guidance--from the sub into the 15km range, second stage is the supercavitating torpedo that goes that last 15km or so. Granted, that would require the submarine to have much longer torpedo tubes.

trhway 6y ago

>Any kind of target guidance inside the gas bubble isn't happening originally it was armed with nuclear warhead - you just needed to point it somewhere in the general direction of the target :)

brudgers 6y ago
The old saw is nuclear torpedoes always sink at least one ship.
- airstrike 6y ago
  Brilliant