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Why do these discussions always revolve around the collection of taxes instead of how the taxes will be used? Would anyone be complaining if they knew the taxes

Why do these discussions always revolve around the collection of taxes instead of how the taxes will be used? Would anyone be complaining if they knew the taxes would be more beneficial? Conversely, wouldn't we reject these new taxes if we knew they weren't going to be a greater benefit? Does anyone even know how the taxes will be used?

cody3222 6y ago
This is such a good point. It's as if the argument is that more taxes is good no matter what rather than knowing what/why you're taxing in the first place.
- jameslk 6y ago
  Yes exactly, it's like everyone is arguing past each other with different assumptions about how taxes will be used. Take this quote from the article: > “We need the wealth that has been generated in the city to be shared more broadly with workers and residents” This person seems to assume the taxes will be shared with the workers and residents. Would they still support these taxes if that were not the case? Others (in this discussion) seem to think the taxes will be thrown at things that don't benefit the city. Maybe so? Would they be more supportive if they knew it was for something they believed in?
  - cody3222 6y ago
    I absolutely love the historic example of taxes that Benjamin Franklin talks about in his biography: he says he went to all his neighbors' houses and asked if they wanted to chip in a nickel a week and have one of the neighborhood boys sweep the street for everyone's benefit every week. Most said yes and paid the fee. This is literally what tax is in the most simplistic form (let's pool our money to get something we couldn't otherwise have - military, roads, other infrastructure). Unfortunately, now we live in a world where we just talk about taxation for the sake of putting money into the pot and have no real idea or influence over how that pot of money is spent. A government that can move towards this Benjamin Franklin kind of simplicity of taxes would make its country such a better place.
    - jameslk 6y ago
      Wow what a great example. I hadn't heard this story before but I will be certainly be referencing it. Thank you. Article I found about it: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-07-02-0136 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-07-02-01...
      - cody3222 6y ago
        Amazing, thanks for sharing a source!
CountSessine 6y ago
Does anyone even know how the taxes will be used? To fund currently unfunded pension liabilities? To hire more city employees at above-market rates? To build new parks and roads? To fund public transportation? The money will be used for what it always is - some of it will be good and some of it won't be very good. Once it's in the pot, it gets stirred around and all sorts of people and projects get a full bowl. That's not what's interesting about this story - taxes get raised all the time by all sorts of authorities. What's interesting is that the tax is full of perverse incentives and may very well lead to lower, not higher tax receipts.
- jameslk 6y ago
  > The money will be used for what it always is - some of it will be good and some of it won't be very good. Once it's in the pot, it gets stirred around and all sorts of people and projects get a full bowl. That's not what's interesting about this story - taxes get raised all the time by all sorts of authorities. Why is this not interesting to you? Just because it's the status quo of how things are done doesn't make it less of an issue to me. Maybe if we knew what pot of taxes were used for what causes, we could reason about their worthiness better. Just raising taxes for the sake of raising taxes seems like a meaningless and potentially regressive goal otherwise. > What's interesting is that the tax is full of perverse incentives and may very well lead to lower, not higher tax receipts. These things can both be interesting.

cody3222 6y ago

This is such a good point. It's as if the argument is that more taxes is good no matter what rather than knowing what/why you're taxing in the first place.

jameslk 6y ago
Yes exactly, it's like everyone is arguing past each other with different assumptions about how taxes will be used. Take this quote from the article: > “We need the wealth that has been generated in the city to be shared more broadly with workers and residents” This person seems to assume the taxes will be shared with the workers and residents. Would they still support these taxes if that were not the case? Others (in this discussion) seem to think the taxes will be thrown at things that don't benefit the city. Maybe so? Would they be more supportive if they knew it was for something they believed in?
- cody3222 6y ago
  I absolutely love the historic example of taxes that Benjamin Franklin talks about in his biography: he says he went to all his neighbors' houses and asked if they wanted to chip in a nickel a week and have one of the neighborhood boys sweep the street for everyone's benefit every week. Most said yes and paid the fee. This is literally what tax is in the most simplistic form (let's pool our money to get something we couldn't otherwise have - military, roads, other infrastructure). Unfortunately, now we live in a world where we just talk about taxation for the sake of putting money into the pot and have no real idea or influence over how that pot of money is spent. A government that can move towards this Benjamin Franklin kind of simplicity of taxes would make its country such a better place.
  - jameslk 6y ago
    Wow what a great example. I hadn't heard this story before but I will be certainly be referencing it. Thank you. Article I found about it: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-07-02-0136 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-07-02-01...
    - cody3222 6y ago
      Amazing, thanks for sharing a source!

CountSessine 6y ago

Does anyone even know how the taxes will be used? To fund currently unfunded pension liabilities? To hire more city employees at above-market rates? To build new parks and roads? To fund public transportation? The money will be used for what it always is - some of it will be good and some of it won't be very good. Once it's in the pot, it gets stirred around and all sorts of people and projects get a full bowl. That's not what's interesting about this story - taxes get raised all the time by all sorts of authorities. What's interesting is that the tax is full of perverse incentives and may very well lead to lower, not higher tax receipts.

jameslk 6y ago
> The money will be used for what it always is - some of it will be good and some of it won't be very good. Once it's in the pot, it gets stirred around and all sorts of people and projects get a full bowl. That's not what's interesting about this story - taxes get raised all the time by all sorts of authorities. Why is this not interesting to you? Just because it's the status quo of how things are done doesn't make it less of an issue to me. Maybe if we knew what pot of taxes were used for what causes, we could reason about their worthiness better. Just raising taxes for the sake of raising taxes seems like a meaningless and potentially regressive goal otherwise. > What's interesting is that the tax is full of perverse incentives and may very well lead to lower, not higher tax receipts. These things can both be interesting.