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What's fascinating is that it is the view of the state that the creation of a hard fork, which is the creation of new and previously non-existing coins accordin

by shiado 6y ago

What's fascinating is that it is the view of the state that the creation of a hard fork, which is the creation of new and previously non-existing coins according to how Bitcoin is taxed by the IRS, is considered to be the proceeds of crime. It is philosophically notable that a piece of property can come into existence and immediately be considered the proceeds of crime in this way.

gamblor956 6y ago
The Bitcoin Cash coins were received solely as a result of owning coins that were the proceeds of a crime, therefore, the BC coins were themselves also deemed the proceeds of a crime.
- shiado 6y ago
  Under US forfeiture laws proceeds is defined as the following: (A) In cases involving illegal goods, illegal services, unlawful activities, and telemarketing and health care fraud schemes, the term “proceeds” means property of any kind obtained directly or indirectly, as the result of the commission of the offense giving rise to forfeiture, and any property traceable thereto, and is not limited to the net gain or profit realized from the offense. I suppose the BTC itself would be covered under "property of any kind obtained directly or indirectly, as the result of the commission of the offense giving rise to forfeiture" And the BCH split coins would fall under "and any property traceable thereto, and is not limited to the net gain or profit realized from the offense." It would appear that such a seizure is legit as 'traceable' is infinitely flexible. But I'm not a lawyer so don't take my word for it.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    Yes, that's generally how the tracing works. In one extreme case (at the state level), prosecutor successfully seized the house of the parent of a defendant, where the defendant had made one gift mortgage payment on behalf of their parents, who had timely paid the mortgage for several years and were not at any risk of being unable to pay their mortgage.
    - shiado 6y ago
      And with a total lack of fungibility things could get even crazier with crypto. Imagine losing your house because you cashed out some BTC you got off of some guy you don't know for cash that Chainalysis says is linked to the Silk Road five transactions back so it is the proceeds of crime.
      - gamblor956 6y ago
        Normally, traceability doesn't extend that far (since generally unless you're the government you don't have the ability to determine the provenance of cash) but with blockchains, you can know if the money you receive is tainted, so it's possible that some jurisdictions might extend tracing to completely innocent parties.
ineedasername 6y ago
Don't think of it from the point of view of "creation" of property. Think of it as an investment: The investment grew, that's all. Imagine an asset seizure that overlooked 1,000 shares of Apple stock. It was then found some years later, but the stock had split so there was now 2,000 shares. That isn't new property, is rose out of the original forfeited asset. This is no different.

by shiado 6y ago

gamblor956 6y ago

The Bitcoin Cash coins were received solely as a result of owning coins that were the proceeds of a crime, therefore, the BC coins were themselves also deemed the proceeds of a crime.

shiado 6y ago
Under US forfeiture laws proceeds is defined as the following: (A) In cases involving illegal goods, illegal services, unlawful activities, and telemarketing and health care fraud schemes, the term “proceeds” means property of any kind obtained directly or indirectly, as the result of the commission of the offense giving rise to forfeiture, and any property traceable thereto, and is not limited to the net gain or profit realized from the offense. I suppose the BTC itself would be covered under "property of any kind obtained directly or indirectly, as the result of the commission of the offense giving rise to forfeiture" And the BCH split coins would fall under "and any property traceable thereto, and is not limited to the net gain or profit realized from the offense." It would appear that such a seizure is legit as 'traceable' is infinitely flexible. But I'm not a lawyer so don't take my word for it.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Yes, that's generally how the tracing works. In one extreme case (at the state level), prosecutor successfully seized the house of the parent of a defendant, where the defendant had made one gift mortgage payment on behalf of their parents, who had timely paid the mortgage for several years and were not at any risk of being unable to pay their mortgage.
  - shiado 6y ago
    And with a total lack of fungibility things could get even crazier with crypto. Imagine losing your house because you cashed out some BTC you got off of some guy you don't know for cash that Chainalysis says is linked to the Silk Road five transactions back so it is the proceeds of crime.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      Normally, traceability doesn't extend that far (since generally unless you're the government you don't have the ability to determine the provenance of cash) but with blockchains, you can know if the money you receive is tainted, so it's possible that some jurisdictions might extend tracing to completely innocent parties.

ineedasername 6y ago

Don't think of it from the point of view of "creation" of property. Think of it as an investment: The investment grew, that's all. Imagine an asset seizure that overlooked 1,000 shares of Apple stock. It was then found some years later, but the stock had split so there was now 2,000 shares. That isn't new property, is rose out of the original forfeited asset. This is no different.