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Or easily swappable battery packs. There was a promo/concept video a few years back, from Tesla I think, showing cars pulling up into a battery swap station an

Or easily swappable battery packs. There was a promo/concept video a few years back, from Tesla I think, showing cars pulling up into a battery swap station and a door slid open in the floor beneath the car and a contraption automatically swapped out the battery for a fully charged one without the driver leaving the car. Not sure whatever came of that concept.

Gwypaas 6y ago
I wonder if battery swapping is a red herring which always will be talked about but never realized? Hugely increased complexity since the battery needs to have all mounting points easily accessed in any condition, rain, snow, ice buildup, whatever, from the outside and all the other accessing geometry forcing the design of the entire vehicle to allow for it. Combine this with battery technology improving allowing faster charging speeds lessening the impact. Like phones fast-charging today. No point having a spare battery when 15-30 mins in a charger easily gives you all the hours you need. Where I live we've had completely electric busses on a line for a few years now (Actually Volvos). Very different use case but also commercial vehicles with similar run hours. They have automatic over-head charging at the ends, filling up enough with a 10 minute stop to run throughout the day. Some longer lines are using hybrids with the same charging technology. They run most of the line entirely on battery power, only kicking in a smaller diesel when needed. Maybe battery swapping makes sense for some specialized applications? But then I would guess just straight biofuels simply takes the cake, although eating the cost penalty.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  I honestly don't see the issue for industrial type machinery. It's not like some Tesla that has to have a sleek body and beautiful styling. Trucks are already big boxes that carry giant boxes behind them. Why should one of those boxes not be a giant 300kwh battery pack that they swap out at the multitude of weigh stations they have to stop at along the highway already? Just run massive power to the weigh stations, put in a few massive DC chargers and some forklifts. Hell you could go further and have other parts of the drivetrain in there -- the controller, the charger unit, the DC to DC converter, etc. Then you have an upgrade path for the trucks as the tech improves.
  - myself248 6y ago
    At some point aren't you just swapping the entire horse? Just transfer the rider and the saddle bags.
    - spockz 6y ago
      Who don’t we do this? Driver makes it to the way station. Has a chat with the next driver while refilling and that driver takes it for the next four/six hours.
      - signaturefish 6y ago
        That /is/ how "we" do it with trains. The difference is that long-distance truckers generally live in their cabs for weeks on end, so they can't easily hand it off to another driver.
        spockz 6y ago
        Ok. So then the lorry and the driver stay behind and the lorry/payload get switched. But apparently there is no such need for speed for road transport and otherwise they would use a plane?
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        Long distance trucking will be the last to go electric for a variety of reasons, weight being one of the biggest. We're mostly talking local delivery here.
  - Symbiote 6y ago
    It will depend on the cost. At some point, the cost of the mechanisms and staff to swap the battery is more than the cost of the rest of a second vehicle.
- nickik 6y ago
  Yes it is. That is why Tesla dropped it, if you actually think threw it, it makes no sense for most cases. JB Struble just gave a great analysis of this at a Standford talk where he explained why the dropped it. It actually makes the vehicle more complex and importantly heavier. It also prevents further improvement, Tesla just showed of their new Cell-to-Structure concept, where the cells themselves have load on them. This fundamentally is incompatible with fast swap. Such a architecture is really great because it negates the 'penalty' of carrying around a battery compared to an ICE vehicle. In fact you might end up lighter, because you don't have the heavy engine and the battery is not so much heavier then the structural steel you would have used otherwise. You can charge trucks during breaks, or during loading and unloading.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Someone 6y ago
  One specialized application is inland shipping. https://zeroemissionservices.nl/en/home-english/ https://zeroemissionservices.nl/en/home-english/: “ZES (Zero Emission Services) supplies interchangeable energy containers for new and existing inland vessels. These containers – called ZESPacks – are charged using renewable power.”
  - Gwypaas 6y ago
    Wow! Thank you for showing me that, really piqued my interest as a commercial maritime nerd on the side! I've seen other more permanent container solutions retrofitted on ships, though mostly passenger ferries with set schedules. Also only as auxiliary power allowing to eg. maneuver when docking without having to start another genset or capture excess energy from required gensets running in inefficient ranges.
noisy_boy 6y ago
I think standards about battery swapping will evolve which will make infrastructure around that to develop easier, quicker and be more interchangeable.
kalleboo 6y ago
It wasn't just a concept - Tesla actually commercialized battery swapping because by doing so you got some California subsidy. Tesla drivers who applied could do a battery swap in 7 minutes at their one swap station. It was discontinued when the subsidy requirement ended. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-prog... https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery-swap-harris-ranch-20150310-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-batter...
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  >Tesla drivers who applied could do a battery swap in 7 minutes Is there any video of the swaps actually working, outside of the promotional stage-show? YouTube doesn't have anything, which is odd...
  - maxdo 6y ago
    not sure about tesla but in china they have commercially operational swap stations. plenty of videos

Gwypaas 6y ago

I wonder if battery swapping is a red herring which always will be talked about but never realized? Hugely increased complexity since the battery needs to have all mounting points easily accessed in any condition, rain, snow, ice buildup, whatever, from the outside and all the other accessing geometry forcing the design of the entire vehicle to allow for it. Combine this with battery technology improving allowing faster charging speeds lessening the impact. Like phones fast-charging today. No point having a spare battery when 15-30 mins in a charger easily gives you all the hours you need. Where I live we've had completely electric busses on a line for a few years now (Actually Volvos). Very different use case but also commercial vehicles with similar run hours. They have automatic over-head charging at the ends, filling up enough with a 10 minute stop to run throughout the day. Some longer lines are using hybrids with the same charging technology. They run most of the line entirely on battery power, only kicking in a smaller diesel when needed. Maybe battery swapping makes sense for some specialized applications? But then I would guess just straight biofuels simply takes the cake, although eating the cost penalty.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
I honestly don't see the issue for industrial type machinery. It's not like some Tesla that has to have a sleek body and beautiful styling. Trucks are already big boxes that carry giant boxes behind them. Why should one of those boxes not be a giant 300kwh battery pack that they swap out at the multitude of weigh stations they have to stop at along the highway already? Just run massive power to the weigh stations, put in a few massive DC chargers and some forklifts. Hell you could go further and have other parts of the drivetrain in there -- the controller, the charger unit, the DC to DC converter, etc. Then you have an upgrade path for the trucks as the tech improves.
- myself248 6y ago
  At some point aren't you just swapping the entire horse? Just transfer the rider and the saddle bags.
  - spockz 6y ago
    Who don’t we do this? Driver makes it to the way station. Has a chat with the next driver while refilling and that driver takes it for the next four/six hours.
    - signaturefish 6y ago
      That /is/ how "we" do it with trains. The difference is that long-distance truckers generally live in their cabs for weeks on end, so they can't easily hand it off to another driver.
      - spockz 6y ago
        Ok. So then the lorry and the driver stay behind and the lorry/payload get switched. But apparently there is no such need for speed for road transport and otherwise they would use a plane?
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        Long distance trucking will be the last to go electric for a variety of reasons, weight being one of the biggest. We're mostly talking local delivery here.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  It will depend on the cost. At some point, the cost of the mechanisms and staff to swap the battery is more than the cost of the rest of a second vehicle.
nickik 6y ago
Yes it is. That is why Tesla dropped it, if you actually think threw it, it makes no sense for most cases. JB Struble just gave a great analysis of this at a Standford talk where he explained why the dropped it. It actually makes the vehicle more complex and importantly heavier. It also prevents further improvement, Tesla just showed of their new Cell-to-Structure concept, where the cells themselves have load on them. This fundamentally is incompatible with fast swap. Such a architecture is really great because it negates the 'penalty' of carrying around a battery compared to an ICE vehicle. In fact you might end up lighter, because you don't have the heavy engine and the battery is not so much heavier then the structural steel you would have used otherwise. You can charge trucks during breaks, or during loading and unloading.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Someone 6y ago
One specialized application is inland shipping. https://zeroemissionservices.nl/en/home-english/ https://zeroemissionservices.nl/en/home-english/: “ZES (Zero Emission Services) supplies interchangeable energy containers for new and existing inland vessels. These containers – called ZESPacks – are charged using renewable power.”
- Gwypaas 6y ago
  Wow! Thank you for showing me that, really piqued my interest as a commercial maritime nerd on the side! I've seen other more permanent container solutions retrofitted on ships, though mostly passenger ferries with set schedules. Also only as auxiliary power allowing to eg. maneuver when docking without having to start another genset or capture excess energy from required gensets running in inefficient ranges.

noisy_boy 6y ago

I think standards about battery swapping will evolve which will make infrastructure around that to develop easier, quicker and be more interchangeable.

kalleboo 6y ago

It wasn't just a concept - Tesla actually commercialized battery swapping because by doing so you got some California subsidy. Tesla drivers who applied could do a battery swap in 7 minutes at their one swap station. It was discontinued when the subsidy requirement ended. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-prog... https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery-swap-harris-ranch-20150310-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-batter...

itsoktocry 6y ago
>Tesla drivers who applied could do a battery swap in 7 minutes Is there any video of the swaps actually working, outside of the promotional stage-show? YouTube doesn't have anything, which is odd...
- maxdo 6y ago
  not sure about tesla but in china they have commercially operational swap stations. plenty of videos