4 ms·

I think the measure is pretty simple: when the society is no longer united by a common idea. Look at what’s going on in the US currently: we are the wealthiest

I think the measure is pretty simple: when the society is no longer united by a common idea. Look at what’s going on in the US currently: we are the wealthiest nation on earth. This lead to a lack of a common struggle, without which what we have in common is some loose sense of patriotism. But patriotism means “I can do whatever the fuck I want, especially with my guns” for the people on the right, and “this country is fundamentally racist and we should fix that” on the left. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Contrast this with the last few grand unifying events in the US history: 9/11, the Apollo program, WWII, WWI, the American revolution, etc. When there is a common struggle people are more likely to display patriotism as forgoing exercising certain rights (holding onto all your rubber and copper during WWII in lieu of helping the war effort). When it’s peace and prosperity our brains look for a struggle and if it’s not against an external force, it becomes against each other.

gruez 6y ago
>Contrast this with the last few grand unifying events in the US history: 9/11, the Apollo program, WWII, WWI, the American revolution, etc one of those is not like the others. What achievements did the grand unifying event of 9/11 produce? Massively expanded government surveillance and a few wars?
- zelias 6y ago
  substantive outcome of the war on terror aside, it really did "bring americans together" in the sense that it united the country against a common external force. america became outwardly aggressive (with all of its attendant costs) instead of inwardly aggressive, which we can observe in today's political climate
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I agree that 9/11 is a different and unique thing on that list. But it did for a few years persist as a unifying event in the minds of a majority of Americans. Saying whether that unity resulted in anything positive wasn’t my intention. Obviously it was a tragedy and so was the ensuing violation of the rights of American citizens and anyone who had anything to do with the US. But while policies enacted might have been evil, the event was a focal point for a relatively long time.
  - panarky 6y ago
    A global pandemic is a pretty big deal, yet the US is bitterly divided over it. Maybe unity helps deal with big events like world wars rather than world wars causing unity. And disunity in the face of catastrophic events is what tears societies apart.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      The one and only reason why the COVID pandemic had the divisive effect on the US is because of the inability of our soon to be prosecuted president to lead. He made it a political issue and tied it to identity politics. That, and lack of education. Just because some people can’t understand science does not mean it doesn’t work. I saw post election comments about how some Arizonan was disappointed in his state because it legalized cannabis and raised teacher’s salaries. Said he was moving some place better. Think about that for a moment.
autosharp 6y ago
Climate change and the corona virus would be great candidates for this common struggle that you say is missing. Why were the 9/11 response, Apollo, WWII/I etc picked up but the current opportunity for common struggle is ignored? You might say that climate change is a slow rot but Apollo and American revolution came on very slowly as well.
- cocoa19 6y ago
  Life extension, disease research (cancer, viruses, etc), new physics discoveries, astronomy. Plenty of things would be exciting to work on that makes human society better.
- zelias 6y ago
  A lack of leadership. All of the listed examples had the leaders of the country front and center on these issues, making each a clear national priority and devoting considerable federal resources to the issue. Has that happened with COVID? Nope.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Because neither of those two things managed to unite us. COVID divided the US more than it was before. Climate change is on relatively few people’s minds and chances are that when it starts affecting lives of everyday Americans on a daily basis, it’ll simply become a finger pointing contest.
crispyambulance 6y ago
Has any free society ever been united by an actual common idea? I suppose we can cite times when there were unifying single events or initiatives, but things have always been bursting at the seams. You cite the Apollo program, yet that straddles over some of the most turbulent social change the US has ever experienced. Don't take my word for it, just review all the stuff that happened in 1968 and compare it to now.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Look at today’s Germany.
mymythisisthis 6y ago
When science, business, religion, and culture all row in the same direction progress is swift. Look at somebody like Christopher Wren (1632-1723). He designed and built "the Monument to the Great Fire of London"(1677), a giant pillar. Hidden inside was a telescope, for carrying out scientific experiments. The astronomical work was used to enhance the the British navy, and navigation. Which was used by the new stock companies to build a large empire. He also designed churches.
mFixman 6y ago
The US went through periods of much higher division in the last 150 years. Whatever fuckery is being caused by Trump is nothing compared to the cultural wars and the Vietnam protests in the '70s, the anti-segregation movement in the '60s, and an entire generation of post-civil war cultural conflict. If you thought this election was bad, you should read about 1876 when State governments were trying to choose electors after the election itself.

gruez 6y ago

>Contrast this with the last few grand unifying events in the US history: 9/11, the Apollo program, WWII, WWI, the American revolution, etc one of those is not like the others. What achievements did the grand unifying event of 9/11 produce? Massively expanded government surveillance and a few wars?

zelias 6y ago
substantive outcome of the war on terror aside, it really did "bring americans together" in the sense that it united the country against a common external force. america became outwardly aggressive (with all of its attendant costs) instead of inwardly aggressive, which we can observe in today's political climate
IgorPartola 6y ago
I agree that 9/11 is a different and unique thing on that list. But it did for a few years persist as a unifying event in the minds of a majority of Americans. Saying whether that unity resulted in anything positive wasn’t my intention. Obviously it was a tragedy and so was the ensuing violation of the rights of American citizens and anyone who had anything to do with the US. But while policies enacted might have been evil, the event was a focal point for a relatively long time.
- panarky 6y ago
  A global pandemic is a pretty big deal, yet the US is bitterly divided over it. Maybe unity helps deal with big events like world wars rather than world wars causing unity. And disunity in the face of catastrophic events is what tears societies apart.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    The one and only reason why the COVID pandemic had the divisive effect on the US is because of the inability of our soon to be prosecuted president to lead. He made it a political issue and tied it to identity politics. That, and lack of education. Just because some people can’t understand science does not mean it doesn’t work. I saw post election comments about how some Arizonan was disappointed in his state because it legalized cannabis and raised teacher’s salaries. Said he was moving some place better. Think about that for a moment.

autosharp 6y ago

Climate change and the corona virus would be great candidates for this common struggle that you say is missing. Why were the 9/11 response, Apollo, WWII/I etc picked up but the current opportunity for common struggle is ignored? You might say that climate change is a slow rot but Apollo and American revolution came on very slowly as well.

cocoa19 6y ago
Life extension, disease research (cancer, viruses, etc), new physics discoveries, astronomy. Plenty of things would be exciting to work on that makes human society better.
zelias 6y ago
A lack of leadership. All of the listed examples had the leaders of the country front and center on these issues, making each a clear national priority and devoting considerable federal resources to the issue. Has that happened with COVID? Nope.
IgorPartola 6y ago
Because neither of those two things managed to unite us. COVID divided the US more than it was before. Climate change is on relatively few people’s minds and chances are that when it starts affecting lives of everyday Americans on a daily basis, it’ll simply become a finger pointing contest.

crispyambulance 6y ago

Has any free society ever been united by an actual common idea? I suppose we can cite times when there were unifying single events or initiatives, but things have always been bursting at the seams. You cite the Apollo program, yet that straddles over some of the most turbulent social change the US has ever experienced. Don't take my word for it, just review all the stuff that happened in 1968 and compare it to now.

IgorPartola 6y ago
Look at today’s Germany.

mymythisisthis 6y ago

When science, business, religion, and culture all row in the same direction progress is swift. Look at somebody like Christopher Wren (1632-1723). He designed and built "the Monument to the Great Fire of London"(1677), a giant pillar. Hidden inside was a telescope, for carrying out scientific experiments. The astronomical work was used to enhance the the British navy, and navigation. Which was used by the new stock companies to build a large empire. He also designed churches.

mFixman 6y ago

The US went through periods of much higher division in the last 150 years. Whatever fuckery is being caused by Trump is nothing compared to the cultural wars and the Vietnam protests in the '70s, the anti-segregation movement in the '60s, and an entire generation of post-civil war cultural conflict. If you thought this election was bad, you should read about 1876 when State governments were trying to choose electors after the election itself.