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>>> Unless this is some extreme security situation/investigation where it was being used for communication between groups I can't really see this holding up in

>>> Unless this is some extreme security situation/investigation where it was being used for communication between groups I can't really see this holding up in a European Court? I feel the need to point out that each EU country has its own judiciary system and laws. There isn't such a thing as an European court. There's are laws/agreements set at the European level that are supposed to trickle down to each country and the process is fairly complicated and messy. It's a very strong misconception from US readers to think that there is an Europe court, like there is a supreme court or something in the US.

eof 6y ago
What is this then? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice > The European Court of Justice (ECJ, French: Cour de Justice européenne), formally just the Court of Justice, is the supreme court of the European Union in matters of European Union law. As a part of the Court of Justice of the European Union, it is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states under Article 263 of the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).
- dathinab 6y ago
  The EJC is there to handle discrepancies between EU regulations and nations (not fully/correctly) implementing them. So this is not a general supreme court. Cases which don't run in local law conflicting EU regulations can't end up there. EU regulations don't cover everything and do often have large margins of interpretation. They are generally not laws but regulations about making laws. So there is a good chance your case will never have a chance to end up there even if it continues to escalate. Edit: also the ECJ does work different in the results they produce then you think, e.g. they can rule that a certain court action/law/etc. is in beach if regulations and anull it to some degree, but that didn't mean they can e.g. force gurillamail to be rehosted. At most they could "annul" a france court discussion that the takedown for given reasons was legal. Which seems similar but is a massive difference as they then could argue that the takedown was still legal due to other reasons and still win (or just delay it further).
wasmitnetzen 6y ago
This view is not accurate. There is at least the European Court of Justice[1], and there are directives[2], which are laws written and enacted by the European Union, without any national act being necessary. Of course, the Court of Justice (sadly) doesn't have a European Constitution to rule on, but it does overturn national laws sometimes. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union)
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Nice to know if you can afford to stand still while your case works its way through the courts for years. Most companies can’t.
pjc50 6y ago
The siblings are half-right; there is the ECJ, and a lot of law is harmonised, but far from everything. But it has nowhere near the political significance of the USSC. And both are appeal courts, so you have to exhaust your country's system first and be granted leave to appeal. I don't really see there being much of a case to answer, although it may be possible to get the alleged secret law enforcement request. OVH terms of service will undoubtedly allow them to terminate your account for any reason.
- kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
  European Courts are the ultimate court of appeal in the EU. In this instance I'd say the European Court of Human Rights would absolutely find shutting down these servers as a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
  - bxk1 6y ago
    European Court of Human Rights is also not exclusive to European Union, other countries signed the convention as well and ratified at least parts of it. There appeals can reach ECHR and its rulings have to be enforced locally.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    Human rights have to do with things like torture, unfair detention, having a fair trial, etc... You are not going there because an hosting company shutdown your mail service. Last cases for reference: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22languageisocode%22:[%22ENG%22],%22documentcollectionid2%22:[%22JUDGMENTS%22] https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22languageisocode%22:[%22EN...}
    - bxk1 6y ago
      Actually, a hosting company challenging the police in jurisdiction where ECHR is ratified would go exactly there once it exhausts options in local courts. But not a customer of a hosting company challenging the decision of a hosting company.
  - 6y ago

eof 6y ago

What is this then? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice > The European Court of Justice (ECJ, French: Cour de Justice européenne), formally just the Court of Justice, is the supreme court of the European Union in matters of European Union law. As a part of the Court of Justice of the European Union, it is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states under Article 263 of the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).

dathinab 6y ago
The EJC is there to handle discrepancies between EU regulations and nations (not fully/correctly) implementing them. So this is not a general supreme court. Cases which don't run in local law conflicting EU regulations can't end up there. EU regulations don't cover everything and do often have large margins of interpretation. They are generally not laws but regulations about making laws. So there is a good chance your case will never have a chance to end up there even if it continues to escalate. Edit: also the ECJ does work different in the results they produce then you think, e.g. they can rule that a certain court action/law/etc. is in beach if regulations and anull it to some degree, but that didn't mean they can e.g. force gurillamail to be rehosted. At most they could "annul" a france court discussion that the takedown for given reasons was legal. Which seems similar but is a massive difference as they then could argue that the takedown was still legal due to other reasons and still win (or just delay it further).

wasmitnetzen 6y ago

This view is not accurate. There is at least the European Court of Justice[1], and there are directives[2], which are laws written and enacted by the European Union, without any national act being necessary. Of course, the Court of Justice (sadly) doesn't have a European Constitution to rule on, but it does overturn national laws sometimes. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union)

tinus_hn 6y ago
Nice to know if you can afford to stand still while your case works its way through the courts for years. Most companies can’t.

pjc50 6y ago

The siblings are half-right; there is the ECJ, and a lot of law is harmonised, but far from everything. But it has nowhere near the political significance of the USSC. And both are appeal courts, so you have to exhaust your country's system first and be granted leave to appeal. I don't really see there being much of a case to answer, although it may be possible to get the alleged secret law enforcement request. OVH terms of service will undoubtedly allow them to terminate your account for any reason.

kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
European Courts are the ultimate court of appeal in the EU. In this instance I'd say the European Court of Human Rights would absolutely find shutting down these servers as a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
- bxk1 6y ago
  European Court of Human Rights is also not exclusive to European Union, other countries signed the convention as well and ratified at least parts of it. There appeals can reach ECHR and its rulings have to be enforced locally.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Human rights have to do with things like torture, unfair detention, having a fair trial, etc... You are not going there because an hosting company shutdown your mail service. Last cases for reference: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22languageisocode%22:[%22ENG%22],%22documentcollectionid2%22:[%22JUDGMENTS%22] https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22languageisocode%22:[%22EN...}
  - bxk1 6y ago
    Actually, a hosting company challenging the police in jurisdiction where ECHR is ratified would go exactly there once it exhausts options in local courts. But not a customer of a hosting company challenging the decision of a hosting company.
- 6y ago