8 ms·

Can someone explain why a throw-away email service such as Guerrilla Mail has to go offline as a result of law enforcement? I understand that shady people are

Can someone explain why a throw-away email service such as Guerrilla Mail has to go offline as a result of law enforcement? I understand that shady people are doing a lot of shady things with such services, but when equally shady people (criminals, terrorists, pedophiles, etc.) use platforms like Facebook or WhatsApp to commit extremely serious crimes nobody is taking Facebook or WhatsApp offline. What is the rationale behind this?

a_imho 6y ago
I guess it is called a double standard.
- mikehuntisnice 6y ago
  Ask sir William about that
logronoide 6y ago
As an old girlfriend told me: “Size matters”. Closing Guerrilla Mail will upset us a lot but the rest of the world will ignore it. Close Whatsapp and the world will be a chaos.
grishka 6y ago
For one, Facebook is its own hosting provider. Not only do they have their own servers, they have their own datacenters and networks. There's quite literally no one to take them offline like that.
- varispeed 6y ago
  It is common that large companies split into subsidiaries dedicated to handle one or a couple of tasks. I wouldn't be surprised if the FB hosting was handled by a separate company owned by FB. Regardless - if there is a request to take something offline, then it should be followed. It is unacceptable that we have two tier legal system. One, very strict for small players, and essentially no rules for the big boys.
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    I hereby request that FB and Twitter be taken offline.
    - pas 6y ago
      It regularly happens, eg. China blocks Google, Brazil sometimes blocks WhatsApp. It depends very much on who does the requesting, and how much pushback there will/would be, and how it will be dealt with. (In China, the pushback doesn't really matter, in Brazil it still does.)
      - jtbayly 6y ago
        I know it does. I just thought the claim above was absurd: > if there is a request to take something offline, then it should be followed.
varispeed 6y ago
It is selective application of the law. It is easy to shut down a small company without army of lawyers and infinite resources. If you don't have broad shoulders, then you need to accept that you have to follow the law. Law does not apply to large companies.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Probably lack of oversight, that is, the US law enforcement systems do not have access to the information shared. Whatsapp may not be secure and the NSA and co may be listening in. I don't believe their end-to-end encryption claim has to be accurate. And it may be end-to-end encrypted but the NSA has a master key to said encryption. Given how there's services like Encrochat, I believe the dodgy side of society is aware of Whatsapp not being secure and are avoiding it.
smarx007 6y ago
Prevent destruction of evidence in an ongoing case?
marcinzm 6y ago
WhatsApp and Facebook are tied to real identities (phone numbers, names, etc.) so while law enforcement may not know what is said they know who said it. So if they compromise one end of a conversation they can probably find all the other participants. Guerrilla Mail on the other hand did not allow for that.
user5994461 6y ago
For the comparison, Facebook/WhatsApp would fully cooperate with the police, if an account is identified to be some sort of fraud/terrorism/drugs, they will communicate the known identity of the user with last known IP and any information they have (under warrant). OVH cannot do that, they only rent physical servers, they have no information about the software or the user. If the police comes knocking, the only thing that can be done is to shutdown or seize the servers. The police must have something against some users of guerilla mail (not a surprise given the nature of the service), they probably went against the servers because they couldn't get a reply or any action from guerilla mail. I checked and found no contact information and no ownership information on their website.
- dathinab 6y ago
  They can contact the server user so that the user can hand out that info information. Any law enforcement should contact guerillamail not the hardware hoster. Only if gurillamail itself is classified as a criminal organization or similar should OVH be contacted for takedown. Even then gurillamail still should be informed about the exact legal court order which caused that so that they can take appropriate actions. The fact that they are taken down supposedly because of the law enforcement but no reason is given is SUPER fishy and smell like non law compliment overreach.ail
  - user5994461 6y ago
    >>> They can contact the server user so that the user can hand out that info information. What do you think happens when the hoster receives an official warrant to disclose who is one particular customer? They shutdown the customer. It should be handled better. On that we can agree.
- bouncycastle 6y ago
  They do have contact info in the "about us" section, and also as a signature at the bottom of each email.
  - user5994461 6y ago
rsync 6y ago
"Can someone explain why a throw-away email service such as Guerrilla Mail has to go offline as a result of law enforcement?" It doesn't. Guerrilla Mail could very easily (and relatively cheaply) house their own infrastructure (a single 1U server ?) in their own rack and self provide their hosting. The takedown notices would go to them. Subpoenas would go to them. They would be served and have great leeway in deciding how to respond and what information to share. Further, placing the entire operation inside a corporate entity would insulate the owners and allow them to slow down the entire legal/notice/response process. You do not have to rely on intermediary providers to publish your website.

a_imho 6y ago

I guess it is called a double standard.

mikehuntisnice 6y ago
Ask sir William about that

logronoide 6y ago

As an old girlfriend told me: “Size matters”. Closing Guerrilla Mail will upset us a lot but the rest of the world will ignore it. Close Whatsapp and the world will be a chaos.

grishka 6y ago

For one, Facebook is its own hosting provider. Not only do they have their own servers, they have their own datacenters and networks. There's quite literally no one to take them offline like that.

varispeed 6y ago
It is common that large companies split into subsidiaries dedicated to handle one or a couple of tasks. I wouldn't be surprised if the FB hosting was handled by a separate company owned by FB. Regardless - if there is a request to take something offline, then it should be followed. It is unacceptable that we have two tier legal system. One, very strict for small players, and essentially no rules for the big boys.
- jtbayly 6y ago
  I hereby request that FB and Twitter be taken offline.
  - pas 6y ago
    It regularly happens, eg. China blocks Google, Brazil sometimes blocks WhatsApp. It depends very much on who does the requesting, and how much pushback there will/would be, and how it will be dealt with. (In China, the pushback doesn't really matter, in Brazil it still does.)
    - jtbayly 6y ago
      I know it does. I just thought the claim above was absurd: > if there is a request to take something offline, then it should be followed.

varispeed 6y ago

It is selective application of the law. It is easy to shut down a small company without army of lawyers and infinite resources. If you don't have broad shoulders, then you need to accept that you have to follow the law. Law does not apply to large companies.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

Probably lack of oversight, that is, the US law enforcement systems do not have access to the information shared. Whatsapp may not be secure and the NSA and co may be listening in. I don't believe their end-to-end encryption claim has to be accurate. And it may be end-to-end encrypted but the NSA has a master key to said encryption. Given how there's services like Encrochat, I believe the dodgy side of society is aware of Whatsapp not being secure and are avoiding it.

smarx007 6y ago

Prevent destruction of evidence in an ongoing case?

marcinzm 6y ago

WhatsApp and Facebook are tied to real identities (phone numbers, names, etc.) so while law enforcement may not know what is said they know who said it. So if they compromise one end of a conversation they can probably find all the other participants. Guerrilla Mail on the other hand did not allow for that.

user5994461 6y ago

For the comparison, Facebook/WhatsApp would fully cooperate with the police, if an account is identified to be some sort of fraud/terrorism/drugs, they will communicate the known identity of the user with last known IP and any information they have (under warrant). OVH cannot do that, they only rent physical servers, they have no information about the software or the user. If the police comes knocking, the only thing that can be done is to shutdown or seize the servers. The police must have something against some users of guerilla mail (not a surprise given the nature of the service), they probably went against the servers because they couldn't get a reply or any action from guerilla mail. I checked and found no contact information and no ownership information on their website.

dathinab 6y ago
They can contact the server user so that the user can hand out that info information. Any law enforcement should contact guerillamail not the hardware hoster. Only if gurillamail itself is classified as a criminal organization or similar should OVH be contacted for takedown. Even then gurillamail still should be informed about the exact legal court order which caused that so that they can take appropriate actions. The fact that they are taken down supposedly because of the law enforcement but no reason is given is SUPER fishy and smell like non law compliment overreach.ail
- user5994461 6y ago
  >>> They can contact the server user so that the user can hand out that info information. What do you think happens when the hoster receives an official warrant to disclose who is one particular customer? They shutdown the customer. It should be handled better. On that we can agree.
bouncycastle 6y ago
They do have contact info in the "about us" section, and also as a signature at the bottom of each email.
- user5994461 6y ago

rsync 6y ago

"Can someone explain why a throw-away email service such as Guerrilla Mail has to go offline as a result of law enforcement?" It doesn't. Guerrilla Mail could very easily (and relatively cheaply) house their own infrastructure (a single 1U server ?) in their own rack and self provide their hosting. The takedown notices would go to them. Subpoenas would go to them. They would be served and have great leeway in deciding how to respond and what information to share. Further, placing the entire operation inside a corporate entity would insulate the owners and allow them to slow down the entire legal/notice/response process. You do not have to rely on intermediary providers to publish your website.