3 ms·

Where did you get that 2-3 hrs number? Do other nation states declare election results that quickly?

bleepblorp 6y ago
Yes, most other democratic countries do. American-style slow results have more in common with the kinds of places that need time to "massage" the results than with the electoral processes in most democracies.
- rtx 6y ago
  Looking from outside it's an horror show. No voter ID, no physical marks on person all ready voted. Most bizzare is the mail ballot how do you even trust those.
  - Fezzik 6y ago
    The mail in ballot is probably the most secure element of the whole voting system. So long as your address is up-to-date with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles you are sent a barcoded/secure ballot and return envelope. Multiple states have been doing this for decades with effectively zero fraud. The few errors have been from people not updating their addresses or people filing out absentee ballots sent to old addresses, which is an entire different issue. Or there was one guy in Oregon that underwent a kidney transplant around election time, moved, and accidentally voted twice because he received two ballots. He did not even remember doing so he was so haggard. The only real impediment/threat to voting is the Republican party doing any and everything they can to limit peoples’ ability to vote.
    - rtx 6y ago
      If the politicians I know we're fighting in America all of them would have access to additional ballots.
  - bleepblorp 6y ago
    Extensive ID requirements and indelible dyes are measures to minimize voter fraud, such as voting by ineligible persons or eligible persons voting more than once. Voter fraud is nearly non-existent in the United States.[0] The overwhelming problem with American elections is electoral fraud, a term which encompasses such things as preventing eligible voters from voting, not counting legitimate ballots, voter intimidation, and jerrymandering. These problems cannot be fixed through measures intended to minimize voter fraud as they are the result of the state, and/or parties, abusing the democratic process rather than the citizen abusing it. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of-widespread-voter-fraud-director-wray-tells-senators.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of...
    - rtx 6y ago
      Isnt it obvious that it will always be the political party that will be doing the fraud.
      - totalZero 6y ago
        Not in a two-party system where both parties are deeply entrenched in all aspects of political life, no.
  - JamesBarney 6y ago
    It's incredibly rare because it's very hard to both have an impact and get away with it not to mention the consequences of being caught are a felony. You need to commit a lot of voter fraud to swing an election, it has to be a very close election. Like one state and 20,000 to 100,000 vote. A once in a 30-50 year election. You need to figure out before hand which state will be swing state that decides the election. Now you have to commit voter fraud 50,000 times in that state. You can't do it in person because the numbers are too larger so you have to do mail-in. How do you find 20,000-50,000 people across the state who you can get a mail in ballot for, steal it, and turn it in without anyone noticing. This is basically an impossible task that even if you pull off has a low chance of making a difference, and a large chance of sending you to jail.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    In PA, my understanding is that you must show ID the first time you vote at a new polling place. I would trust mail ballots because they are delivered to your residence. Pretty hard for a foreign actor to fake/game that kind of system -- or at least, harder than posting a bunch of inorganic FUD comments on social media such as HN.
lstamour 6y ago
Generally, preliminary numbers, yes. Here’s a recording from 2019 elections in Canada. The last seat was determined 4 hours and 44 minutes later, and that is unusually delayed, but still a record time compared to U.S. counts: https://youtu.be/GYrY_945co0 https://youtu.be/GYrY_945co0 Of course it might vary by population, but it shouldn’t need to be this inefficient to run or count advance votes, etc. Elections Canada might also make a difference rather than going state by state. And we don’t have a step after where votes are cast, etc., instead it’s a simple first past the post system. Some background: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-votes-2019-election-day-vote-counting-1.5322009 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-votes-2019-election-... https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=faq&document=faqelec&lang=e#a7 https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=faq&do... As a Canadian I’d often watch as polls close in different time zones and then roughly a half hour later, results trickle in. Usually within the first two or three hours, up to half the country’s votes, by population (at least), have been counted and results shared — even as polls are still closing in other parts. It’s expected that by 2am at the latest you could usually know the outcome, even in a contested race. The exception would be minority governments, which can form their own majority from coalitions over the next few days after a Canadian election. And they do still count all the votes by hand in Canada. This kind of vote count inefficiency reminds me of tax code inefficiencies. Just because taxes are complicated to file in the U.S. does not mean it has to be that way in the rest of the world! :)
jerlam 6y ago
The United States has, at best, 51 different voting systems in a federal election. There is no centralization by design. That's 51 different voter registration laws, 51 different sets of candidates, 51 different ballots, 51 different voting procedures, etc. Each state's laws have been subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) changed to provide a benefit to whoever was in power at that time.
- Izkata 6y ago
  > 51 different ballots There's a hell of a lot more than that, the ballots include local votes as well.

Yes, most other democratic countries do. American-style slow results have more in common with the kinds of places that need time to "massage" the results than with the electoral processes in most democracies.

rtx 6y ago
Looking from outside it's an horror show. No voter ID, no physical marks on person all ready voted. Most bizzare is the mail ballot how do you even trust those.
- Fezzik 6y ago
  The mail in ballot is probably the most secure element of the whole voting system. So long as your address is up-to-date with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles you are sent a barcoded/secure ballot and return envelope. Multiple states have been doing this for decades with effectively zero fraud. The few errors have been from people not updating their addresses or people filing out absentee ballots sent to old addresses, which is an entire different issue. Or there was one guy in Oregon that underwent a kidney transplant around election time, moved, and accidentally voted twice because he received two ballots. He did not even remember doing so he was so haggard. The only real impediment/threat to voting is the Republican party doing any and everything they can to limit peoples’ ability to vote.
  - rtx 6y ago
    If the politicians I know we're fighting in America all of them would have access to additional ballots.
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  Extensive ID requirements and indelible dyes are measures to minimize voter fraud, such as voting by ineligible persons or eligible persons voting more than once. Voter fraud is nearly non-existent in the United States.[0] The overwhelming problem with American elections is electoral fraud, a term which encompasses such things as preventing eligible voters from voting, not counting legitimate ballots, voter intimidation, and jerrymandering. These problems cannot be fixed through measures intended to minimize voter fraud as they are the result of the state, and/or parties, abusing the democratic process rather than the citizen abusing it. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of-widespread-voter-fraud-director-wray-tells-senators.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/fbi-has-not-seen-evidence-of...
  - rtx 6y ago
    Isnt it obvious that it will always be the political party that will be doing the fraud.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      Not in a two-party system where both parties are deeply entrenched in all aspects of political life, no.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  It's incredibly rare because it's very hard to both have an impact and get away with it not to mention the consequences of being caught are a felony. You need to commit a lot of voter fraud to swing an election, it has to be a very close election. Like one state and 20,000 to 100,000 vote. A once in a 30-50 year election. You need to figure out before hand which state will be swing state that decides the election. Now you have to commit voter fraud 50,000 times in that state. You can't do it in person because the numbers are too larger so you have to do mail-in. How do you find 20,000-50,000 people across the state who you can get a mail in ballot for, steal it, and turn it in without anyone noticing. This is basically an impossible task that even if you pull off has a low chance of making a difference, and a large chance of sending you to jail.
- totalZero 6y ago
  In PA, my understanding is that you must show ID the first time you vote at a new polling place. I would trust mail ballots because they are delivered to your residence. Pretty hard for a foreign actor to fake/game that kind of system -- or at least, harder than posting a bunch of inorganic FUD comments on social media such as HN.

lstamour 6y ago

Generally, preliminary numbers, yes. Here’s a recording from 2019 elections in Canada. The last seat was determined 4 hours and 44 minutes later, and that is unusually delayed, but still a record time compared to U.S. counts: https://youtu.be/GYrY_945co0 https://youtu.be/GYrY_945co0 Of course it might vary by population, but it shouldn’t need to be this inefficient to run or count advance votes, etc. Elections Canada might also make a difference rather than going state by state. And we don’t have a step after where votes are cast, etc., instead it’s a simple first past the post system. Some background: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-votes-2019-election-day-vote-counting-1.5322009 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-votes-2019-election-... https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=faq&document=faqelec&lang=e#a7 https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=faq&do... As a Canadian I’d often watch as polls close in different time zones and then roughly a half hour later, results trickle in. Usually within the first two or three hours, up to half the country’s votes, by population (at least), have been counted and results shared — even as polls are still closing in other parts. It’s expected that by 2am at the latest you could usually know the outcome, even in a contested race. The exception would be minority governments, which can form their own majority from coalitions over the next few days after a Canadian election. And they do still count all the votes by hand in Canada. This kind of vote count inefficiency reminds me of tax code inefficiencies. Just because taxes are complicated to file in the U.S. does not mean it has to be that way in the rest of the world! :)

jerlam 6y ago

The United States has, at best, 51 different voting systems in a federal election. There is no centralization by design. That's 51 different voter registration laws, 51 different sets of candidates, 51 different ballots, 51 different voting procedures, etc. Each state's laws have been subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) changed to provide a benefit to whoever was in power at that time.

Izkata 6y ago
> 51 different ballots There's a hell of a lot more than that, the ballots include local votes as well.