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Wow. Just wow. Probably controversial, but in a dozen or so years of programming I think XML probably represents the most stupid and costly ideas to've gained

Wow. Just wow. Probably controversial, but in a dozen or so years of programming I think XML probably represents the most stupid and costly ideas to've gained widespread adoption. I honestly can't think of a single other relatively recent technology that's responsible for nearly as many wasted lines of code, unbelievably inefficient systems, and legions of developers who are terrified of bytes that don't render nicely in notepad. I hate it. Just saying. (Downvotes expected).

haberman 16y ago
Couldn't agree more. The thing that frustrates me the most is that people jump to defend it because it's what they know. It's like they're plugged into the matrix and they will fight for it until the end. People love to write regexes to process their bastardized XML subset because it's "easy," without realizing that their regex is not even remotely an XML parser and would fall over at the first sight of CDATA.
- famousactress 16y ago
  Totally. On two totally independent occasions I've come into work to have a coworker tell me they implemented an XML Parser the evening before. Um, right. Great. The thing that totally boggles my mind is that I think it really prove-ably fails to deliver on literally every promise/benefit/design-goal that I hear folks claim it embodies.
  - kamaal 16y ago
    I know parsing XML with regular expressions is a sin, but when you need to get some data out a 20 GB XML immediately in the next 10 minutes. It turns out that its better to check out the layout of the XML, use combinations of grep, sed, awk , perl with pipes just to serve the need for the moment. This is better than spending next 5 hours writing a Java program to do it. Its not a permanent solution, but either way that Java program and the shell hack are both going to do the very same. I would rather use the shell and do it, rather than spend the next 5 hours with Java and eclipse.
    - haberman 16y ago
      The fact that those are your two options is just a testament to how absurdly unsuitable XML is for this purpose. Your "combinations of grep, sed, awk, perl" will corrupt your data if your file happens to contain any CDATA, entities, unexpected formatting, processing instructions, etc. Don't get me wrong, sometimes a quick hack is worth the risk. But it's certainly no reason to defend XML, which is what put you in the position where a quick hack was your best option.
      - kamaal 16y ago
        I agree with you. Actually I'm not too much in favor of XML either. Somebody high up in the hierarchy attends a few conferences here and there, reads the IBM journal. All along the word 'XML' gets repeated some 1000 times. So the impression he gets is, XML is going to add value to everything it touches. Most developers like me have no say in that at all, we have to just use it. I prefer the hack to get it just done. But agree with you, none of that is a permanent solution.
    - pasbesoin 16y ago
      I've similarly seen simple pattern matching used in high transaction volume processing. Using a DOM based, or even a stream based processor is considered too expensive. So, just look for the relevant tag and grab the next bit, while presuming that the context is correct. (This involved a limited number of trusted partners, in a relatively steady-state environment.) OTOH, it eliminated discussions/arguments about what format to use. In a corporate environment, that can be a significant win in and of itself. (Yes, "win" should be in quotes.)
rbanffy 16y ago
> I honestly can't think of a single other relatively recent technology that's responsible for nearly as many wasted lines of code Java.
- famousactress 16y ago
  Is Java verbose? Totally.. Is it meritless (like XML)? Absolutely not. I think Java's a great language for some problems, and a fine language for loads of problems. It's a shame that it's overused for what I guess I'd only describe as institutionalized laziness.. But I don't think it deserves to be mentioned in the same conversation as XML (when the topic is Technologies That Are Fucking Awful).
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    I agree. I was unfair. Java is good for many things - many times you want to control details somewhere between C and, say, Perl. And yes - it's been used for all the wrong things.
lukev 16y ago
Agree completely if you're talking about XML used for storing structured data, as a serialization format, or as a settings format. Disagree completely if you're talking about XML as an extensible markup language for textual documents, for which it is a perfectly sane choice. Problem is, few people use it that way.
mvalle 16y ago
There is one good thing XML. brought: BPEL. It's the funniest language I've ever seen.

haberman 16y ago

Couldn't agree more. The thing that frustrates me the most is that people jump to defend it because it's what they know. It's like they're plugged into the matrix and they will fight for it until the end. People love to write regexes to process their bastardized XML subset because it's "easy," without realizing that their regex is not even remotely an XML parser and would fall over at the first sight of CDATA.

famousactress 16y ago
Totally. On two totally independent occasions I've come into work to have a coworker tell me they implemented an XML Parser the evening before. Um, right. Great. The thing that totally boggles my mind is that I think it really prove-ably fails to deliver on literally every promise/benefit/design-goal that I hear folks claim it embodies.
- kamaal 16y ago
  I know parsing XML with regular expressions is a sin, but when you need to get some data out a 20 GB XML immediately in the next 10 minutes. It turns out that its better to check out the layout of the XML, use combinations of grep, sed, awk , perl with pipes just to serve the need for the moment. This is better than spending next 5 hours writing a Java program to do it. Its not a permanent solution, but either way that Java program and the shell hack are both going to do the very same. I would rather use the shell and do it, rather than spend the next 5 hours with Java and eclipse.
  - haberman 16y ago
    The fact that those are your two options is just a testament to how absurdly unsuitable XML is for this purpose. Your "combinations of grep, sed, awk, perl" will corrupt your data if your file happens to contain any CDATA, entities, unexpected formatting, processing instructions, etc. Don't get me wrong, sometimes a quick hack is worth the risk. But it's certainly no reason to defend XML, which is what put you in the position where a quick hack was your best option.
    - kamaal 16y ago
      I agree with you. Actually I'm not too much in favor of XML either. Somebody high up in the hierarchy attends a few conferences here and there, reads the IBM journal. All along the word 'XML' gets repeated some 1000 times. So the impression he gets is, XML is going to add value to everything it touches. Most developers like me have no say in that at all, we have to just use it. I prefer the hack to get it just done. But agree with you, none of that is a permanent solution.
  - pasbesoin 16y ago
    I've similarly seen simple pattern matching used in high transaction volume processing. Using a DOM based, or even a stream based processor is considered too expensive. So, just look for the relevant tag and grab the next bit, while presuming that the context is correct. (This involved a limited number of trusted partners, in a relatively steady-state environment.) OTOH, it eliminated discussions/arguments about what format to use. In a corporate environment, that can be a significant win in and of itself. (Yes, "win" should be in quotes.)

rbanffy 16y ago

> I honestly can't think of a single other relatively recent technology that's responsible for nearly as many wasted lines of code Java.

famousactress 16y ago
Is Java verbose? Totally.. Is it meritless (like XML)? Absolutely not. I think Java's a great language for some problems, and a fine language for loads of problems. It's a shame that it's overused for what I guess I'd only describe as institutionalized laziness.. But I don't think it deserves to be mentioned in the same conversation as XML (when the topic is Technologies That Are Fucking Awful).
- rbanffy 16y ago
  I agree. I was unfair. Java is good for many things - many times you want to control details somewhere between C and, say, Perl. And yes - it's been used for all the wrong things.

lukev 16y ago

Agree completely if you're talking about XML used for storing structured data, as a serialization format, or as a settings format. Disagree completely if you're talking about XML as an extensible markup language for textual documents, for which it is a perfectly sane choice. Problem is, few people use it that way.

mvalle 16y ago

There is one good thing XML. brought: BPEL. It's the funniest language I've ever seen.