6 ms·

This question is easy for me — hog farming is, overall, a greater harm because we are talking about more pigs and more horrendous conditions. Both are morally i

This question is easy for me — hog farming is, overall, a greater harm because we are talking about more pigs and more horrendous conditions. Both are morally impermissible, in my opinion, which is why I keep to a vegan diet and don’t wear fur. Putting aside the harms to animals for a moment, we might consider both mink farms and hog farms to be part of a larger problem, which is monoculture agriculture. Minks weren’t meant to live in tiny cages all cramped together, and neither were hogs, and weird ‘Koyaanisqatsi’ (life out of balance) things are going to happen when we do that — just like raising nothing but corn and killing everything else on farmland will eventually deplete the soil. This isn’t some subtle act of interpretation; the evidence is all around us that industrial-style practices applied to living things have negative externalities that plausibly outweigh their benefits.

toper-centage 6y ago
Barely anyone cares about fur products, but people are too stuburn to stop general meat consumption - even if not totally - not matter the cost. Eating more vegan meals is probably the best personal action one can make for the environment. Most other significant actions can only be made on a corporate level.
- uhtred 6y ago
  I wish more people would give plant based "meat" a try. Some of the sausages and burgers available are mind blowing.
  - loa_in_ 6y ago
    If I don't eat meat for the taste (which is a gross notion to me) but for the nutritional value does plant based substitute provide at least comparable nutrition? Does it have the aminoacids I would get from meat?
    - hkeide 6y ago
      The bioavailability is much lower and it’s usually filled with factory oils like soybean oil which is not very healthy.
      - k__ 6y ago
        In the documentary "Game Changer" they said this is FUD by the meat industry.
        hkeide 6y ago
        There are many debunkings of The Game Changers, this is a good place to start: https://youtu.be/jClsLOuQ2DE?t=772 https://youtu.be/jClsLOuQ2DE?t=772
      - uhtred 6y ago
        "soybean oil which is not very healthy" - can you provide evidence for this?
        hkeide 6y ago
        There are lots of mouse studies that point to bad metabolic effects from soybean oil consumption. Many of these mechanisms are the same in humans. If one wants to start pulling the metaphorical thread on seed oils, this is not hard to do, as long as one realizes that the companies who sell these things will always tell the consumer they are healthy. https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/01/17/americas-most-widely-consumed-oil-causes-genetic-changes-brain https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/01/17/americas-most-widel... Seed oils did not exist in the food supply before the late 1800s, so the idea that they are this amazing health food, while also being incredibly cheap/profitable to produce and really useful in creating junk food really stretches credulity.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    If I want meat I will eat meat. Plants aren't meat. If you want people to eat plants then promote some vegan dishes that are good on their own without relying on comparisons to something else. "It tastes like meat" is not a compelling pitch. Bacon isn't advertised as "better than plants" or "tastes like plants". It doesn't need to. BMW doesn't run commercials during NFL games where members of the public think their cars are Chevys. When you pitch "plant meat" you are implying plants are inferior to meat in some way.
    - pellucidar 6y ago
      “It tastes like meat” is a good argument when combined with “it’s cheaper than meat.” It falls flat when it’s more expensive than meat.
      - mulmen 6y ago
        And even then it only works for people who lack the discretionary income for meat. That's a significant number of people but not everyone. If your goal is to reduce meat consumption in general then the pitch should be "plants are better than meat" rather than "plants can be kinda like meat".
        _-___________-_ 6y ago
        I absolutely agree. Many plants are delicious. I will take eggplant, courgette, cabbage or any number of other delicious plants over a brown mush of unknown plants and other things that tries to pretend to be meat, thanks.
      - uhtred 6y ago
        Many people choose to stop eating meat because it's cruel, not because they don't enjoy eating meat. Therefore plant based meat is a fantastic invention :)
        setgree 6y ago
        I’m in this category and I love that meat substitutes are continually improving
  - mongol 6y ago
    Not going to try it as long as it is called "plant based". I want to know what it is. "Plant based" is too fuzzy.
    - uhtred 6y ago
      Read the ingredients list :)
    - setgree 6y ago
      This is an important marketing point that is maybe not raised often enough. Then again, the main non-water ingredient in Just Eggs is Mung Bean Protein Isolate, so...maybe ‘plants-based’ is an improvement
  - _-___________-_ 6y ago
    I’ve tried a wide variety of plant based “meat”. I’ve also tried a wide variety of meat. Some of the plant based “meat” is surprisingly good, but “mind blowing” is going way too far, and setting up unrealistic expectations that will end up being detrimental to the goal of getting more people to reduce or eliminate meat.
    - uhtred 6y ago
      It's subjective, but I personally find it mind blowing how similar Impossible Burgers or Beyond Sausage are to the real thing. I also find it mind blowing that I can create a vegan version of a British classic ;) sausage, chips, and beans and not be able to tell the difference from the real thing :)
      - _-___________-_ 6y ago
        It's amazing how people's subjective experiences can differ so much. Impossible and Beyond are good, but to me they are really, really, really different from meat, to the point that I don't even understand why people eat them: Vegetables are delicious. Why try and fail to make them similar to meat, and simultaneously make it harder to understand what is even contained in the thing you're eating?
- setgree 6y ago
  If anything, I would say fur gets a disproportionately high amount of attention from animal rights activists, relative to the total number of animals affected. According to Animal Charity Evaluators, an effective altruism group that focuses on animal welfare [0]: > Of domesticated land animals used and killed by humans in the United States, over 99.6% are farmed land animals, about 0.2% are animals used in laboratories, 0.07% are used for clothing, and 0.03% are killed in companion animal shelters. I am assuming they are grouping animals farmed for fur in the ‘raised for clothing’ category. [0] https://animalcharityevaluators.org/donation-advice/why-farmed-animals/ https://animalcharityevaluators.org/donation-advice/why-farm...
disown 6y ago
> which is why I keep to a vegan diet Animals are killed to provide for your vegan diet too, though you can argue they are indirectly killed. And then there is the moral issue of murdering plants and consuming them. > Minks weren’t meant to live in tiny cages all cramped together The same goes for plants/vegetation used to feed vegans. Unless you are grazing the great plains like wild buffalo. > just like raising nothing but corn and killing everything else on farmland will eventually deplete the soil. What about clearing the land for avocado, almond, etc? Also, do you know what helps replenish the soil? Animals... > the evidence is all around us that industrial-style Except that the only way vegan diet works is through industrialized farming/transporting/etc. There are no such things as a vegan homestead. You cannot live harmoniously in nature via a vegan diet. Whereas an omnivore diet can be supported by a homestead. You can argue industrialized farming is bad. But that's the only kind of farming that can support vegans. An inuit in alaska or a homesteader in vermont cannot survive on locally produced vegan diet. As a matter of fact, no human can survive in nature on a vegan diet. All humans on a vegan diet would die of starvation/disease in nature. It's why no vegan human society has ever existed. You can't be against industrialized farming and be for veganism. You have to be one or the other because they are necessarily contradictory of each other. Omnivore can be against industrialized farming because we can survive without it, unlike vegans.
- setgree 6y ago
  In general, I like it when people make their objections to veganism explicit, rather than just going about their lives eating meat. It suggests openness to conversation that I appreciate. So an upvote for you. To the point that veganism requires industrialized farming: this may be true, I don't know. I think we do know that widespread veganism would reduce some of environmental harms associated with industrialized farming, because: * A lot of currently cultivated farmland produces feed for livestock (Vox estimates 36% [0]); * This paper [1] estimates that switching land currently used for animals to plants would lead to a manifold increase in nutrient output per acre; * The BBC [2] estimates that "A meat-eater’s diet requires 17 times more land, 14 times more water and 10 times more energy than a vegetarian’s;" And so on [3] [4]. I don't think we know for sure what would happen if the world stopped eating meat, but I think overall, environmentally and ethically, it would be an improvement. (To a point about worse nutritional profiles of vegan vs. omnivore diets (raised in [4]), I think the answer is to eat oysters, clams and mussels, which are high in iron, protein, and fish oil, but don't have capacity for pain/experience, as far as we know. This is called ostroveganism and I picked up the idea from Michael Huemer [5].) [0] https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel... [1] https://www.pnas.org/content/115/15/3804 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/15/3804 [2] https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/what-would-world-look-if-everyone-went-vegan https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/what-would-world-loo... [3] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/what-would-happen-if-all-americans-went-vegan https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/what-would-happen-if... [4] https://www.pnas.org/content/114/48/E10301 https://www.pnas.org/content/114/48/E10301 [5] https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2174&context=bts https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

toper-centage 6y ago

Barely anyone cares about fur products, but people are too stuburn to stop general meat consumption - even if not totally - not matter the cost. Eating more vegan meals is probably the best personal action one can make for the environment. Most other significant actions can only be made on a corporate level.

uhtred 6y ago
I wish more people would give plant based "meat" a try. Some of the sausages and burgers available are mind blowing.
- loa_in_ 6y ago
  If I don't eat meat for the taste (which is a gross notion to me) but for the nutritional value does plant based substitute provide at least comparable nutrition? Does it have the aminoacids I would get from meat?
  - hkeide 6y ago
    The bioavailability is much lower and it’s usually filled with factory oils like soybean oil which is not very healthy.
    - k__ 6y ago
      In the documentary "Game Changer" they said this is FUD by the meat industry.
      - hkeide 6y ago
        There are many debunkings of The Game Changers, this is a good place to start: https://youtu.be/jClsLOuQ2DE?t=772 https://youtu.be/jClsLOuQ2DE?t=772
    - uhtred 6y ago
      "soybean oil which is not very healthy" - can you provide evidence for this?
      - hkeide 6y ago
        There are lots of mouse studies that point to bad metabolic effects from soybean oil consumption. Many of these mechanisms are the same in humans. If one wants to start pulling the metaphorical thread on seed oils, this is not hard to do, as long as one realizes that the companies who sell these things will always tell the consumer they are healthy. https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/01/17/americas-most-widely-consumed-oil-causes-genetic-changes-brain https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2020/01/17/americas-most-widel... Seed oils did not exist in the food supply before the late 1800s, so the idea that they are this amazing health food, while also being incredibly cheap/profitable to produce and really useful in creating junk food really stretches credulity.
- mulmen 6y ago
  If I want meat I will eat meat. Plants aren't meat. If you want people to eat plants then promote some vegan dishes that are good on their own without relying on comparisons to something else. "It tastes like meat" is not a compelling pitch. Bacon isn't advertised as "better than plants" or "tastes like plants". It doesn't need to. BMW doesn't run commercials during NFL games where members of the public think their cars are Chevys. When you pitch "plant meat" you are implying plants are inferior to meat in some way.
  - pellucidar 6y ago
    “It tastes like meat” is a good argument when combined with “it’s cheaper than meat.” It falls flat when it’s more expensive than meat.
    - mulmen 6y ago
      And even then it only works for people who lack the discretionary income for meat. That's a significant number of people but not everyone. If your goal is to reduce meat consumption in general then the pitch should be "plants are better than meat" rather than "plants can be kinda like meat".
      - _-___________-_ 6y ago
        I absolutely agree. Many plants are delicious. I will take eggplant, courgette, cabbage or any number of other delicious plants over a brown mush of unknown plants and other things that tries to pretend to be meat, thanks.
    - uhtred 6y ago
      Many people choose to stop eating meat because it's cruel, not because they don't enjoy eating meat. Therefore plant based meat is a fantastic invention :)
      - setgree 6y ago
        I’m in this category and I love that meat substitutes are continually improving
- mongol 6y ago
  Not going to try it as long as it is called "plant based". I want to know what it is. "Plant based" is too fuzzy.
  - uhtred 6y ago
    Read the ingredients list :)
  - setgree 6y ago
    This is an important marketing point that is maybe not raised often enough. Then again, the main non-water ingredient in Just Eggs is Mung Bean Protein Isolate, so...maybe ‘plants-based’ is an improvement
- _-___________-_ 6y ago
  I’ve tried a wide variety of plant based “meat”. I’ve also tried a wide variety of meat. Some of the plant based “meat” is surprisingly good, but “mind blowing” is going way too far, and setting up unrealistic expectations that will end up being detrimental to the goal of getting more people to reduce or eliminate meat.
  - uhtred 6y ago
    It's subjective, but I personally find it mind blowing how similar Impossible Burgers or Beyond Sausage are to the real thing. I also find it mind blowing that I can create a vegan version of a British classic ;) sausage, chips, and beans and not be able to tell the difference from the real thing :)
    - _-___________-_ 6y ago
      It's amazing how people's subjective experiences can differ so much. Impossible and Beyond are good, but to me they are really, really, really different from meat, to the point that I don't even understand why people eat them: Vegetables are delicious. Why try and fail to make them similar to meat, and simultaneously make it harder to understand what is even contained in the thing you're eating?
setgree 6y ago
If anything, I would say fur gets a disproportionately high amount of attention from animal rights activists, relative to the total number of animals affected. According to Animal Charity Evaluators, an effective altruism group that focuses on animal welfare [0]: > Of domesticated land animals used and killed by humans in the United States, over 99.6% are farmed land animals, about 0.2% are animals used in laboratories, 0.07% are used for clothing, and 0.03% are killed in companion animal shelters. I am assuming they are grouping animals farmed for fur in the ‘raised for clothing’ category. [0] https://animalcharityevaluators.org/donation-advice/why-farmed-animals/ https://animalcharityevaluators.org/donation-advice/why-farm...

disown 6y ago

> which is why I keep to a vegan diet Animals are killed to provide for your vegan diet too, though you can argue they are indirectly killed. And then there is the moral issue of murdering plants and consuming them. > Minks weren’t meant to live in tiny cages all cramped together The same goes for plants/vegetation used to feed vegans. Unless you are grazing the great plains like wild buffalo. > just like raising nothing but corn and killing everything else on farmland will eventually deplete the soil. What about clearing the land for avocado, almond, etc? Also, do you know what helps replenish the soil? Animals... > the evidence is all around us that industrial-style Except that the only way vegan diet works is through industrialized farming/transporting/etc. There are no such things as a vegan homestead. You cannot live harmoniously in nature via a vegan diet. Whereas an omnivore diet can be supported by a homestead. You can argue industrialized farming is bad. But that's the only kind of farming that can support vegans. An inuit in alaska or a homesteader in vermont cannot survive on locally produced vegan diet. As a matter of fact, no human can survive in nature on a vegan diet. All humans on a vegan diet would die of starvation/disease in nature. It's why no vegan human society has ever existed. You can't be against industrialized farming and be for veganism. You have to be one or the other because they are necessarily contradictory of each other. Omnivore can be against industrialized farming because we can survive without it, unlike vegans.

setgree 6y ago
In general, I like it when people make their objections to veganism explicit, rather than just going about their lives eating meat. It suggests openness to conversation that I appreciate. So an upvote for you. To the point that veganism requires industrialized farming: this may be true, I don't know. I think we do know that widespread veganism would reduce some of environmental harms associated with industrialized farming, because: * A lot of currently cultivated farmland produces feed for livestock (Vox estimates 36% [0]); * This paper [1] estimates that switching land currently used for animals to plants would lead to a manifold increase in nutrient output per acre; * The BBC [2] estimates that "A meat-eater’s diet requires 17 times more land, 14 times more water and 10 times more energy than a vegetarian’s;" And so on [3] [4]. I don't think we know for sure what would happen if the world stopped eating meat, but I think overall, environmentally and ethically, it would be an improvement. (To a point about worse nutritional profiles of vegan vs. omnivore diets (raised in [4]), I think the answer is to eat oysters, clams and mussels, which are high in iron, protein, and fish oil, but don't have capacity for pain/experience, as far as we know. This is called ostroveganism and I picked up the idea from Michael Huemer [5].) [0] https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel... [1] https://www.pnas.org/content/115/15/3804 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/15/3804 [2] https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/what-would-world-look-if-everyone-went-vegan https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/what-would-world-loo... [3] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/what-would-happen-if-all-americans-went-vegan https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/what-would-happen-if... [4] https://www.pnas.org/content/114/48/E10301 https://www.pnas.org/content/114/48/E10301 [5] https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2174&context=bts https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...