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Thanks to the practice of Parallel Construction and using Third Party vendors, I'm sure there would be a way around this. Hypothetically, the Portland PD sends

by fitz13 6y ago

Thanks to the practice of Parallel Construction and using Third Party vendors, I'm sure there would be a way around this. Hypothetically, the Portland PD sends all the details of the crime, including images, to a Third Party. Third Party, through use of proprietary black-box algorithms, returns a list of likely suspects. Portland PD investigates the suspects, and constructs the parallel case, without the need for the Third Party's report to ever enter the court room. Not that I think Portland, Maine is an epicenter of authoritarianism. Is it a good thing to have idealistic laws? Or is it damaging to have a false sense of security?

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Not that I think Portland, Maine is an epicenter of authoritarianism. Relative to the kinds of places many of it's residents come from it is a paradise of individual liberty. Relative to the rest of Maine it is the most authoritarian by a mile. People from Portland (cue joke about them all being from MA) wouldn't blink twice about a local ordinance that would have the people of Bangor or Lewiston up in arms. I'm sure they don't mean to be authoritarian and it's just a reflection of the cultural norms from the places many of them come from and everyone else keeping their mouth shut (because nobody wants to rock that boat in a tourism economy) but having a reason doesn't excuse it. Yes I know I'm generalizing, please don't paint a straw-man and act like I called your hardliner libertarian uncle from Portland an authoritarian. Clearly I mean it at the statistical level and mean it relative to the other parts of Maine.
- SmellTheGlove 6y ago
  This statement is a touch misleading. Portland's the only thing resembling a city in Maine, so it's going to have a larger government, organized police, etc, compared to the rest of the state. However, I wouldn't describe anywhere in Maine as being remotely authoritarian in the first place. The disclaimer being I haven't really spent any time up north, but I suspect no one is alleging authoritarianism north of Bangor.
  - dasm 6y ago
    I grew up in Maine, and I think the statement is quite accurate. Portland is not authoritarian, but it is by comparison to the northern counties
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - mrguyorama 6y ago
      Only because the northern part of Maine feels like it doesn't even have government. Yeah, turns out a functioning city might feel more authoritarian than like the three people who do all the work in your local town office
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        A city can function just fine with out a bunch of local by-laws controlling what you can and can't do on your own property and proactive enforcement of local codes and minor civil infractions that aren't harming anyone. I live in one such city (of similar size). It's awesome. Portland's problem in my observation is the wealth and cultural norms (not the same thing as the politics) of the tourists who become permanent residents and an economic impetus to keep things quaint looking for the tourists. Nobody wants tell the golden goose to stop crapping on the lawn.
        SmellTheGlove 6y ago
        So anywhere with zoning and parking tickets is authoritarian? Come on. What, specifically, is Portland doing that you'd consider to be authoritarian, and what would you propose in its place? Also, tourists who become permanent residents are just residents. Trying to paint a group of fellow citizens as outsiders is a negative pattern, IMHO.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        >So anywhere with zoning and parking tickets is authoritarian? Come on. What, specifically, is Portland doing that you'd consider to be authoritarian, and what would you propose in its place? Zoning is inherently authoritarian and an affront to individual liberty. Parking tickets depends on whether they write citations for things that aren't harming anyone, like people parking unregistered stuff on the street where there's ample parking available. If you're enforcing minor laws just because they're there and forcing people to step in line when them doing whatever doesn't appear to be bothering anyone then that passes my duck test for authoritarianism. Frankly from the rest of your comments in here you're coming across like a masshole who thinks Portland is perfect because they don't have busybodies calling the cops on people over nothing and cops just chilling waiting to see someone do something so they can go fishing (or waiting to get one of those calls). And for the record, the poor parts of MA aren't authoritarian like that but people from the poor parts don't retire to Portland. >Trying to paint a group of fellow citizens as outsiders is a negative pattern, They're from elsewhere and are of a different culture. Sounds like a reasonable definition of "outsider" to me.
lmkg 6y ago
I don't think you're fully appreciating what this bans. The concern is not taking picture of a crime scene. The concern is having always-on camera feeds with facial recognition running. I.e., being able to trace the movements of individuals without any crime or suspicion of a crime.
- fitz13 6y ago
  It's true I may not be, but I'm not sure what the material difference is between real-time facial recognition and performing the same analysis on security camera footage after the fact. I should clarify, I'm not arguing in favor of real time facial recognition, I'm just skeptical of this move's efficacy in preventing the same outcome.
  - lmkg 6y ago
    With ubiquitous surveillance, you can build a database of the location activity of all citizens. This is problematic for several reasons, with top-of-mind right now being targeting individuals for political reasons, but also stuff like what if the database gets hacked, and general fourth- and fifth-amendment concerns. With a ban in place, the ability to build such a database drops significantly because you need a pretense for every image or piece of video you acquire. You can acquire and send for processing security camera footage when there was a crime, but when there was no crime? How do you justify acquiring the security footage, and how do you justify asking for it to be processed. Whether the footage available to facial recognize is ubiquitous or not makes a qualitative impact.
    - fitz13 6y ago
      Good points, well made. Especially about the hacking. My only other thought is that a government/organization interested in using/misusing such a database would be willing to invent a pretense. I'm not sure how heavily to weigh the precedent of government surveillance skirting these kinds of protections. I assume that Portland doesn't have a FISA court rubber-stamp equivalent, but I can't know for sure. Either way, I think you're right that adding speedbumps to the process is a good thing, especially for data security. I just hope that people don't consider this too much of a victory, although it is definitely a victory.

by fitz13 6y ago

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>Not that I think Portland, Maine is an epicenter of authoritarianism. Relative to the kinds of places many of it's residents come from it is a paradise of individual liberty. Relative to the rest of Maine it is the most authoritarian by a mile. People from Portland (cue joke about them all being from MA) wouldn't blink twice about a local ordinance that would have the people of Bangor or Lewiston up in arms. I'm sure they don't mean to be authoritarian and it's just a reflection of the cultural norms from the places many of them come from and everyone else keeping their mouth shut (because nobody wants to rock that boat in a tourism economy) but having a reason doesn't excuse it. Yes I know I'm generalizing, please don't paint a straw-man and act like I called your hardliner libertarian uncle from Portland an authoritarian. Clearly I mean it at the statistical level and mean it relative to the other parts of Maine.

SmellTheGlove 6y ago
This statement is a touch misleading. Portland's the only thing resembling a city in Maine, so it's going to have a larger government, organized police, etc, compared to the rest of the state. However, I wouldn't describe anywhere in Maine as being remotely authoritarian in the first place. The disclaimer being I haven't really spent any time up north, but I suspect no one is alleging authoritarianism north of Bangor.
- dasm 6y ago
  I grew up in Maine, and I think the statement is quite accurate. Portland is not authoritarian, but it is by comparison to the northern counties
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrguyorama 6y ago
    Only because the northern part of Maine feels like it doesn't even have government. Yeah, turns out a functioning city might feel more authoritarian than like the three people who do all the work in your local town office
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      A city can function just fine with out a bunch of local by-laws controlling what you can and can't do on your own property and proactive enforcement of local codes and minor civil infractions that aren't harming anyone. I live in one such city (of similar size). It's awesome. Portland's problem in my observation is the wealth and cultural norms (not the same thing as the politics) of the tourists who become permanent residents and an economic impetus to keep things quaint looking for the tourists. Nobody wants tell the golden goose to stop crapping on the lawn.
      - SmellTheGlove 6y ago
        So anywhere with zoning and parking tickets is authoritarian? Come on. What, specifically, is Portland doing that you'd consider to be authoritarian, and what would you propose in its place? Also, tourists who become permanent residents are just residents. Trying to paint a group of fellow citizens as outsiders is a negative pattern, IMHO.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        >So anywhere with zoning and parking tickets is authoritarian? Come on. What, specifically, is Portland doing that you'd consider to be authoritarian, and what would you propose in its place? Zoning is inherently authoritarian and an affront to individual liberty. Parking tickets depends on whether they write citations for things that aren't harming anyone, like people parking unregistered stuff on the street where there's ample parking available. If you're enforcing minor laws just because they're there and forcing people to step in line when them doing whatever doesn't appear to be bothering anyone then that passes my duck test for authoritarianism. Frankly from the rest of your comments in here you're coming across like a masshole who thinks Portland is perfect because they don't have busybodies calling the cops on people over nothing and cops just chilling waiting to see someone do something so they can go fishing (or waiting to get one of those calls). And for the record, the poor parts of MA aren't authoritarian like that but people from the poor parts don't retire to Portland. >Trying to paint a group of fellow citizens as outsiders is a negative pattern, They're from elsewhere and are of a different culture. Sounds like a reasonable definition of "outsider" to me.

lmkg 6y ago

I don't think you're fully appreciating what this bans. The concern is not taking picture of a crime scene. The concern is having always-on camera feeds with facial recognition running. I.e., being able to trace the movements of individuals without any crime or suspicion of a crime.

fitz13 6y ago
It's true I may not be, but I'm not sure what the material difference is between real-time facial recognition and performing the same analysis on security camera footage after the fact. I should clarify, I'm not arguing in favor of real time facial recognition, I'm just skeptical of this move's efficacy in preventing the same outcome.
- lmkg 6y ago
  With ubiquitous surveillance, you can build a database of the location activity of all citizens. This is problematic for several reasons, with top-of-mind right now being targeting individuals for political reasons, but also stuff like what if the database gets hacked, and general fourth- and fifth-amendment concerns. With a ban in place, the ability to build such a database drops significantly because you need a pretense for every image or piece of video you acquire. You can acquire and send for processing security camera footage when there was a crime, but when there was no crime? How do you justify acquiring the security footage, and how do you justify asking for it to be processed. Whether the footage available to facial recognize is ubiquitous or not makes a qualitative impact.
  - fitz13 6y ago
    Good points, well made. Especially about the hacking. My only other thought is that a government/organization interested in using/misusing such a database would be willing to invent a pretense. I'm not sure how heavily to weigh the precedent of government surveillance skirting these kinds of protections. I assume that Portland doesn't have a FISA court rubber-stamp equivalent, but I can't know for sure. Either way, I think you're right that adding speedbumps to the process is a good thing, especially for data security. I just hope that people don't consider this too much of a victory, although it is definitely a victory.