5 ms·

Who, besides the lonely and the weird, wants to talk to pollsters? Maybe the very passionate voter who believes the "other" side is deeply, and fundamentally ev

by Grakel 6y ago

Who, besides the lonely and the weird, wants to talk to pollsters? Maybe the very passionate voter who believes the "other" side is deeply, and fundamentally evil. So for me, it comes back to the vilification of the "other" by media and educated elites that there is an insurmountable leftist bias in polling. If half of what Trump is accused of were true, this wouldn't have been close.

zepto 6y ago
Totally agree with except for you last line. Trump is accused of a lot of stuff, but so are the democrats, and all of it has some level of credibility. That is why it is close. Ironically I think it nets out to bring a lot more about policies and political beliefs than ‘who is accused of what’, since nobody looks that good. Biden made some stupid unforced errors which I think confirm republican’s fears. Trumpeting gun control at stupid moments is the biggest mistake - one which Clinton also made.
- Grakel 6y ago
  Absolutely. If the republicans could could get on board with pro choice, or the democrats could get on board with guns, each party would be unstoppable unless the other followed suit. The American people are very passionate about less regulation in both of those areas.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Yes - good example. My sense is that it should be easier for Democrats to get on board with guns than for Republicans to get on board with pro-choice. The reasoning is that gun deaths can be prevented by a lot of mechanisms that are not gun control but are consistent with democratic values, whereas pro-life tends to be more a product of religious or spiritual belief rather than pragmatism. I know plenty of otherwise highly progressive people who changed their view of guns once they learned more about them. I wouldn’t even begin to know how to change the opinion of someone who is Pro-life. I literally can’t make the case.
    - Grakel 6y ago
      Yep, totally agree.
    - CincinnatiMan 6y ago
      Pro-life doesn't need religious or spiritual origins, it can simply be that someone views abortion as the killing of another human and feels very strong about it. It's a very complicated issue and is one that I don't have strong feelings about (for or against in totality) because I think that sometimes, it's worth it to end the life of the little human and sometimes it's not. Also frankly because I'm a man and am less affected by it. I don't think we'll ever have everyone on the same page with this topic.
      - zepto 6y ago
        I agree, however when I have discussed this with people the question ends up boiling down to some version of ‘at what point does a fertilized egg become a person’. I.e. the fundamental issue is a question about what constitutes a person. Resolving this always seems to have spiritual connotations and some kind of faith is involved. If you have strong feelings about killing people and those apply to fetuses, it implies you have a strong belief that a fetus is a person.
- smt88 6y ago
  > Trump is accused of a lot of stuff, but so are the democrats, and all of it has some level of credibility. This is like saying, "This tennis ball is large, but so is the moon, and both of them have some level of largeness." The scale absolutely matters. There is no "both sides" this time. All the GOP fears (Biden is senile, a socialist, or a puppet) are based on lies. Everyone else's fears are based on Trump's actual policies: separating children from parents; ignoring and lying about Covid; attacking climate science; and tearing down democratic norms. > Trumpeting gun control at stupid moments is the biggest mistake - one which Clinton also made Gun control is very popular, even among gun owners[1]. Biden spent very, very little time talking about it. He mostly talked about expanding health-care access, managing Covid, and bringing back jobs. If you look at this talking points in the debates, he barely mentioned guns at all. This fear, again, is false fear-mongering by GOP allies, just as it was when they claimed Obama would take away all the guns[2]. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/16/share-of-americans-who-favor-stricter-gun-laws-has-increased-since-2017/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/16/share-of-am... 2. https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/08/nra-obama-most-anti-gun-candidate-ever-will-ban-guns-010821 https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/08/nra-obama-m...
  - Grakel 6y ago
    You're presenting a very slanted opinion as neutral fact.
    - smt88 6y ago
      Do you believe all facts are politically neutral? Also, if the opinion is slanted and not factual, please explain exactly which opinions and how they're slanted. I didn't write anything that isn't an opinion of the majority of people who pay attention to US affairs.
      - zepto 6y ago
        There is certainly no evidence to support the idea that your view is the opinion of the majority, even if it is common.

by Grakel 6y ago

zepto 6y ago

Totally agree with except for you last line. Trump is accused of a lot of stuff, but so are the democrats, and all of it has some level of credibility. That is why it is close. Ironically I think it nets out to bring a lot more about policies and political beliefs than ‘who is accused of what’, since nobody looks that good. Biden made some stupid unforced errors which I think confirm republican’s fears. Trumpeting gun control at stupid moments is the biggest mistake - one which Clinton also made.

Grakel 6y ago
Absolutely. If the republicans could could get on board with pro choice, or the democrats could get on board with guns, each party would be unstoppable unless the other followed suit. The American people are very passionate about less regulation in both of those areas.
- zepto 6y ago
  Yes - good example. My sense is that it should be easier for Democrats to get on board with guns than for Republicans to get on board with pro-choice. The reasoning is that gun deaths can be prevented by a lot of mechanisms that are not gun control but are consistent with democratic values, whereas pro-life tends to be more a product of religious or spiritual belief rather than pragmatism. I know plenty of otherwise highly progressive people who changed their view of guns once they learned more about them. I wouldn’t even begin to know how to change the opinion of someone who is Pro-life. I literally can’t make the case.
  - Grakel 6y ago
    Yep, totally agree.
  - CincinnatiMan 6y ago
    Pro-life doesn't need religious or spiritual origins, it can simply be that someone views abortion as the killing of another human and feels very strong about it. It's a very complicated issue and is one that I don't have strong feelings about (for or against in totality) because I think that sometimes, it's worth it to end the life of the little human and sometimes it's not. Also frankly because I'm a man and am less affected by it. I don't think we'll ever have everyone on the same page with this topic.
    - zepto 6y ago
      I agree, however when I have discussed this with people the question ends up boiling down to some version of ‘at what point does a fertilized egg become a person’. I.e. the fundamental issue is a question about what constitutes a person. Resolving this always seems to have spiritual connotations and some kind of faith is involved. If you have strong feelings about killing people and those apply to fetuses, it implies you have a strong belief that a fetus is a person.
smt88 6y ago
> Trump is accused of a lot of stuff, but so are the democrats, and all of it has some level of credibility. This is like saying, "This tennis ball is large, but so is the moon, and both of them have some level of largeness." The scale absolutely matters. There is no "both sides" this time. All the GOP fears (Biden is senile, a socialist, or a puppet) are based on lies. Everyone else's fears are based on Trump's actual policies: separating children from parents; ignoring and lying about Covid; attacking climate science; and tearing down democratic norms. > Trumpeting gun control at stupid moments is the biggest mistake - one which Clinton also made Gun control is very popular, even among gun owners[1]. Biden spent very, very little time talking about it. He mostly talked about expanding health-care access, managing Covid, and bringing back jobs. If you look at this talking points in the debates, he barely mentioned guns at all. This fear, again, is false fear-mongering by GOP allies, just as it was when they claimed Obama would take away all the guns[2]. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/16/share-of-americans-who-favor-stricter-gun-laws-has-increased-since-2017/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/16/share-of-am... 2. https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/08/nra-obama-most-anti-gun-candidate-ever-will-ban-guns-010821 https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/08/nra-obama-m...
- Grakel 6y ago
  You're presenting a very slanted opinion as neutral fact.
  - smt88 6y ago
    Do you believe all facts are politically neutral? Also, if the opinion is slanted and not factual, please explain exactly which opinions and how they're slanted. I didn't write anything that isn't an opinion of the majority of people who pay attention to US affairs.
    - zepto 6y ago
      There is certainly no evidence to support the idea that your view is the opinion of the majority, even if it is common.