7 ms·

I grew up in an abusive home, and was both overweight and nerdy + socially awkward most of my childhood. Thus I got verbally & physically bullied at school badl

I grew up in an abusive home, and was both overweight and nerdy + socially awkward most of my childhood. Thus I got verbally & physically bullied at school badly too. Until I was about 10-11, at which point I decided I had enough and snapped with all the pent-up rage of someone with nothing left to lose. I began starting a fight the moment others would belittle me. Didn't always win, but eventually other kids decided being a dick wasn't worth the physical confrontation and learned to leave me well enough alone. Reflecting on this as an adult, I think that living through violence and abuse typically ends in one of two ways for most people. Either they normalize the behavior, and perpetuate the cycle against their spouses and own children, or having lived through it themselves they can't imagine ever doing something like that to another human, let alone someone they care about. I fall firmly into the second camp, but that doesn't seem to be the rule.

birdyrooster 6y ago
Your second to last paragraph doesn’t seem to be as mutually exclusive to me as you make it. Often it seems the ones perpetuating this behavior also can’t imagine ever causing the same harm that they went through when in fact it can be worse.
specialist 6y ago
I'm sorry. I snapped a few times too. It's super dangerous. I think about Columbine and everything since all the time. That could have been me. Most of our oversteer since has made things worse. My son's middle and high schools were pressure cookers. Seemingly optimized for drama and trauma.
- quantified 6y ago
  So much of the reaction to the Columbine shooting was the event itself and not why it happened. I'm not trying to excuse the tragedy there. Only pointing out that if you push people they may snap, and even if they were in the wrong in snapping the effects of the snap still remains. My high school was and is extremely highly regarded and was a torture chamber for some people. My kids have grown up with the oversteer and their experiences were much better (in other schools) thankfully.
  - nailer 6y ago
    I find the culture really bad. If a colleague punched somebody in the face at their workplace frequently, and that person constantly lived in threat of violence from that colleague for many hours a day, the colleague would be fired and handed to the police. But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable. Why would people be surprised when a human child's natural reaction to horrifying abuse mirrors what any other living animal would do?
    - gabereiser 6y ago
      >But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable. -- often going unnoticed and/or unreported I might add.
      - Doxin 6y ago
        If a child breaks in a school and no one chooses to hear, do they make a sound?
    - Agentlien 6y ago
      I've always been really upset about this. Also, the way it's treated by adults. Teachers always just said to ignore them and they'll stop. That never worked for me. They also said you had to tell them if someone was being a bully. I did, they didn't really believe me and took no action. When it got too bad my parents reported the assault to the police. The police warned that kind of case was not a priority and then dropped it. Eventually the bully was called to the principal and given a stern talking to. He was told next time there would be consequences. A few weeks later he punched another classmate in the eye so he temporarily lost eyesight on that eye. The bully was given a stern talking to and told that next time there really would be consequences.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Afaik, Columbine was not case of snapping after being bullied. That was just something some reporters guessed and it became popular narrative. But, that does not seem to be what happened in that school.
agilob 6y ago
>living through violence and abuse typically ends in one of two ways for most people. You forgot suicide and self-harm. >One in 10 teenagers bullied at school have attempted to commit suicide, according to research published today. In addition, a further 30 per cent go on to self-harm. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/report-10-bullied-teenagers-have-tried-commit-suicide-9262874.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/...
justinclift 6y ago
Interesting. Personally I've not ever seen an instance of someone who was (seriously) bullied, themselves then become a bully.
- rlonn 6y ago
  I have, and I'd bet that a reason you don't see it often is that you generally don't keep many adult bullies as close friends, because they're usually not people who are nice to be around.
  - justinclift 6y ago
    Interesting. That's probably a really good point. :) You're right, I tend to not include people in my friendship group who are arseholes or treat others badly.
- 205guy 6y ago
  Not quite your description of bully becoming the bully, but I knew someone who was bullied who became a needy adult that used emotional abuse in their relationships. The person was high functioning on the autism spectrum and had been taunted and mocked in school for being awkward, different, and unable to defend themselves socially. More importantly, the person also said their parents were socially ambitious and always vocally disappointed in them for not being part of the "popular" kids. As an older teen, this person rebelled against their parents, smoked a lot of weed to self-medicate, but also had serious self-image problems and attempted suicide. Eventually got into programming and earned a decent living in a different country. But when I knew them as an adult, I always found them cranky, critical, and anxious. I later found out from an ex-partner that they were manipulative and needy, threatening to leave or even kill themselves when they didn't get their way. I was friends with this ex-partner who told me it looked like a mild case of borderline personality disorder: and the symptoms and actions seemed to fit. It's often caused by childhood emotional trauma, leads to emotional abuse of others in vain attempt to get the affection they were missing as children (that's a very rough summary). And it can lead to their own children missing the critical affection they need and thus perpetuate. And that made me think that perhaps this person's parents were also emotionally abusive because of a similar situation. And I even wonder if borderline personality disorder isn't a social comorbidity with autism spectrum, not medically related but a social situation that can happen more frequently.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> Either they normalize the behavior, and perpetuate the cycle against their spouses and own children The "cycle of abuse" refers to the different repeating stages an abuse victim and abuser go through together in an abusive relationship[1]. It does not refer to victims of abuse going on to further abuse others or their abuser. This is something that research also backs up: victims of abuse are no more likely to turn around abuse others than people who did not experience abuse. It's an important distinction because the popular conception of what the "cycle of abuse" entails matches yours. That misconception leads to outcomes where victims of abuse are painted as abusers when they stand up for themselves or attempt to escape the abuse, and some are even prosecuted for domestic abuse after doing so, or after seeking help from law enforcement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse
- modoc 6y ago
  In your own wiki link: "The phrase is also used more generally to describe any set of conditions which perpetuate abusive and dysfunctional relationships, such as in poor child rearing practices which tend to get passed down." The research I have read, and googled for, seems to dispute your claim. There appears to be a strong correlation between childhood victims of abuse then abusing others: https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abu... as well as being more likely to be involved in abuse and violence (giving and receiving) as adults: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/peoplewhowereabusedaschildrenaremorelikelytobeabusedasanadult/2017-09-27 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...
- gabereiser 6y ago
  Not to air too much dirty laundry but this is exactly the defense my ex-wife used at our divorce. I stood up against abuse and she claimed the victim of abuse perpetuating this misconception of "abuse" and leveraged a whole host of public services for women who are victims of real abuse.
- rriepe 6y ago
  Good point. I like using inter-generational here, but it's kind of a mouthful.
usefulcat 6y ago
> I began starting a fight the moment others would belittle me. This sucks but.. from personal experience, there's absolutely no question in my mind that this is by far the most effective way to deal with assholes in middle school. I'd love to be wrong, but if there's a better way, I certainly didn't find it when I daily had to deal with that kind of shit.
- aspaceman 6y ago
  Silence is the other successful approach. You make yourself an unappealing punching bag by not responding or taking it in a way the bully finds pleasurable. I personally found the fighting back approach unsuccessful for myself and I know others did too. It doesn’t work if watching you try and fight back is funny for the bullies. Seeing you flail about is a blast for them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - justinclift 6y ago
    > Seeing you flail about is a blast for them. Maybe (?) the problem there was not having developed the skills to fight back effectively, before doing so. For myself, I was able to start training in martial arts (starting with a reasonable Taekwondo place) after I'd been bullied for a while. Personally, I was still a complete wimp for at least the first few years after I started training. But at some point (maybe 3-4 years into training?) I did the "snap" thing and had the skills + physique for it to be effective. Plus I wasn't stupid enough to "snap" in a public place where I'd be caught. Maybe the other important thing is learning to pick your opportune moment(s) for pay back. ;)
    - User23 6y ago
      Middle school isn't the octagon. Granted knowing how to throw a punch or kick with decent technique helps, but what's really important is having the attitude of being willing to inflict harm on another human being. And it sounds like that was what limited GP's courses of action. Also of course GP could have been skipped grades or otherwise been much punier than the other students, in which case the amount of training one could get by that age would likely be irrelevant anyhow. In that case the correct strategy is to make friends. Middle school really is a remarkable distillation of human tribal behaviors.

birdyrooster 6y ago

Your second to last paragraph doesn’t seem to be as mutually exclusive to me as you make it. Often it seems the ones perpetuating this behavior also can’t imagine ever causing the same harm that they went through when in fact it can be worse.

specialist 6y ago

I'm sorry. I snapped a few times too. It's super dangerous. I think about Columbine and everything since all the time. That could have been me. Most of our oversteer since has made things worse. My son's middle and high schools were pressure cookers. Seemingly optimized for drama and trauma.

quantified 6y ago
So much of the reaction to the Columbine shooting was the event itself and not why it happened. I'm not trying to excuse the tragedy there. Only pointing out that if you push people they may snap, and even if they were in the wrong in snapping the effects of the snap still remains. My high school was and is extremely highly regarded and was a torture chamber for some people. My kids have grown up with the oversteer and their experiences were much better (in other schools) thankfully.
- nailer 6y ago
  I find the culture really bad. If a colleague punched somebody in the face at their workplace frequently, and that person constantly lived in threat of violence from that colleague for many hours a day, the colleague would be fired and handed to the police. But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable. Why would people be surprised when a human child's natural reaction to horrifying abuse mirrors what any other living animal would do?
  - gabereiser 6y ago
    >But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable. -- often going unnoticed and/or unreported I might add.
    - Doxin 6y ago
      If a child breaks in a school and no one chooses to hear, do they make a sound?
  - Agentlien 6y ago
    I've always been really upset about this. Also, the way it's treated by adults. Teachers always just said to ignore them and they'll stop. That never worked for me. They also said you had to tell them if someone was being a bully. I did, they didn't really believe me and took no action. When it got too bad my parents reported the assault to the police. The police warned that kind of case was not a priority and then dropped it. Eventually the bully was called to the principal and given a stern talking to. He was told next time there would be consequences. A few weeks later he punched another classmate in the eye so he temporarily lost eyesight on that eye. The bully was given a stern talking to and told that next time there really would be consequences.
- watwut 6y ago
  Afaik, Columbine was not case of snapping after being bullied. That was just something some reporters guessed and it became popular narrative. But, that does not seem to be what happened in that school.

agilob 6y ago

>living through violence and abuse typically ends in one of two ways for most people. You forgot suicide and self-harm. >One in 10 teenagers bullied at school have attempted to commit suicide, according to research published today. In addition, a further 30 per cent go on to self-harm. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/report-10-bullied-teenagers-have-tried-commit-suicide-9262874.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/...

justinclift 6y ago

Interesting. Personally I've not ever seen an instance of someone who was (seriously) bullied, themselves then become a bully.

rlonn 6y ago
I have, and I'd bet that a reason you don't see it often is that you generally don't keep many adult bullies as close friends, because they're usually not people who are nice to be around.
- justinclift 6y ago
  Interesting. That's probably a really good point. :) You're right, I tend to not include people in my friendship group who are arseholes or treat others badly.
205guy 6y ago
Not quite your description of bully becoming the bully, but I knew someone who was bullied who became a needy adult that used emotional abuse in their relationships. The person was high functioning on the autism spectrum and had been taunted and mocked in school for being awkward, different, and unable to defend themselves socially. More importantly, the person also said their parents were socially ambitious and always vocally disappointed in them for not being part of the "popular" kids. As an older teen, this person rebelled against their parents, smoked a lot of weed to self-medicate, but also had serious self-image problems and attempted suicide. Eventually got into programming and earned a decent living in a different country. But when I knew them as an adult, I always found them cranky, critical, and anxious. I later found out from an ex-partner that they were manipulative and needy, threatening to leave or even kill themselves when they didn't get their way. I was friends with this ex-partner who told me it looked like a mild case of borderline personality disorder: and the symptoms and actions seemed to fit. It's often caused by childhood emotional trauma, leads to emotional abuse of others in vain attempt to get the affection they were missing as children (that's a very rough summary). And it can lead to their own children missing the critical affection they need and thus perpetuate. And that made me think that perhaps this person's parents were also emotionally abusive because of a similar situation. And I even wonder if borderline personality disorder isn't a social comorbidity with autism spectrum, not medically related but a social situation that can happen more frequently.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> Either they normalize the behavior, and perpetuate the cycle against their spouses and own children The "cycle of abuse" refers to the different repeating stages an abuse victim and abuser go through together in an abusive relationship[1]. It does not refer to victims of abuse going on to further abuse others or their abuser. This is something that research also backs up: victims of abuse are no more likely to turn around abuse others than people who did not experience abuse. It's an important distinction because the popular conception of what the "cycle of abuse" entails matches yours. That misconception leads to outcomes where victims of abuse are painted as abusers when they stand up for themselves or attempt to escape the abuse, and some are even prosecuted for domestic abuse after doing so, or after seeking help from law enforcement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse

modoc 6y ago
In your own wiki link: "The phrase is also used more generally to describe any set of conditions which perpetuate abusive and dysfunctional relationships, such as in poor child rearing practices which tend to get passed down." The research I have read, and googled for, seems to dispute your claim. There appears to be a strong correlation between childhood victims of abuse then abusing others: https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abu... as well as being more likely to be involved in abuse and violence (giving and receiving) as adults: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/peoplewhowereabusedaschildrenaremorelikelytobeabusedasanadult/2017-09-27 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...
gabereiser 6y ago
Not to air too much dirty laundry but this is exactly the defense my ex-wife used at our divorce. I stood up against abuse and she claimed the victim of abuse perpetuating this misconception of "abuse" and leveraged a whole host of public services for women who are victims of real abuse.
rriepe 6y ago
Good point. I like using inter-generational here, but it's kind of a mouthful.

usefulcat 6y ago

> I began starting a fight the moment others would belittle me. This sucks but.. from personal experience, there's absolutely no question in my mind that this is by far the most effective way to deal with assholes in middle school. I'd love to be wrong, but if there's a better way, I certainly didn't find it when I daily had to deal with that kind of shit.

aspaceman 6y ago
Silence is the other successful approach. You make yourself an unappealing punching bag by not responding or taking it in a way the bully finds pleasurable. I personally found the fighting back approach unsuccessful for myself and I know others did too. It doesn’t work if watching you try and fight back is funny for the bullies. Seeing you flail about is a blast for them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- justinclift 6y ago
  > Seeing you flail about is a blast for them. Maybe (?) the problem there was not having developed the skills to fight back effectively, before doing so. For myself, I was able to start training in martial arts (starting with a reasonable Taekwondo place) after I'd been bullied for a while. Personally, I was still a complete wimp for at least the first few years after I started training. But at some point (maybe 3-4 years into training?) I did the "snap" thing and had the skills + physique for it to be effective. Plus I wasn't stupid enough to "snap" in a public place where I'd be caught. Maybe the other important thing is learning to pick your opportune moment(s) for pay back. ;)
  - User23 6y ago
    Middle school isn't the octagon. Granted knowing how to throw a punch or kick with decent technique helps, but what's really important is having the attitude of being willing to inflict harm on another human being. And it sounds like that was what limited GP's courses of action. Also of course GP could have been skipped grades or otherwise been much punier than the other students, in which case the amount of training one could get by that age would likely be irrelevant anyhow. In that case the correct strategy is to make friends. Middle school really is a remarkable distillation of human tribal behaviors.