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Good. The users and the drivers both wanted this. You may dislike hearing this, but it takes a lot to inject yourself into that arrangement and massively incre

Good. The users and the drivers both wanted this. You may dislike hearing this, but it takes a lot to inject yourself into that arrangement and massively increase the cost because you want it done differently. I recognise that it appears to create "rules for thee but not for me" for these companies, but when they are so thoroughly satisfying both their customers and their workers, you should ask yourself if forcing them into the existing regulatory framework is the right equilibrium to shoot for.

Causality1 6y ago
Uber and Lyft are examples of the best way independent contracting works. The problem is the way its eating industries that were not built for it. Drivers get the benefits of being independent. Other contractors, for example estheticians, get almost none of them. They don't get to set their own hours and rates.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > Uber and Lyft are examples of the best way independent contracting works. "Best way" as in: Uber and Lyft are engaged in price dumping subsidized by endless investor money while at the same time passing most costs onto "independent contractors" who are just people looking for a job in an ever contracting pool of available jobs?
joshribakoff 6y ago
According to the companies lobbying its what the drivers want. No one has established it actually is, and in fact some drivers have quit and spoken out about the apps constantly nagging with propaganda. Also as a rider who’s gotten drunk drivers, idiots going reverse on highway when the exit was missed, or pulling up in beater cars where the engine stalls out, I’ll just say there’s a reason taxis were more expensive and not all riders wanted this outcome. In fact, drivers will be paid below minimum wage since the laws are crafted to only apply minimum wages while they have a passenger in the car
- sida 6y ago
  Have you talked to drivers? There have been many independent surveys that show drivers disproportionately want to remain contractors.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    People in the US are disproportionately uneducated on how the rest of the world operates. And any idea left of hunting people for sport [1] is dismissed with ultimate disdain. The US is overwhelmingly "why should I pay for some lazy slacker with my hard earned money". And this is especially prevalent among the lower income people. [1] A joke from the internets that goes something like "In the US everything left of literally hunting people for sport is called socialism"
dkural 6y ago
Another "user" is the taxpayer - who ultimately ends up paying for the social security, healthcare, and other unmet needs (lack of paid sick leave, lack of paid maternity/paternity leave etc.) of these contractors. So in a way, by exempting Uber from these rules, but not others, society is handing out a subsidy for both the passengers and drivers.
- zests 6y ago
  What's the tax burden of the people unemployed by AB5 versus the tax burden of the people lacking benefits by working for the gig economy?
  - linuxftw 6y ago
    What's the tax burden of enforcing a minimum wage vs not having one?
- bhupy 6y ago
  Which is fine, because that's progressively taxed. The alternative is higher prices which flatly burden everyone equally.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    Higher prices are naturally regressive and burden people with lower incomes more than higher. If the gov't levied a hypothetical "everyone pay $2k in taxes right now" tax who do you think would be the most impacted?
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    > Which is fine No it's not fine [that taxpayers "ultimately end up paying for the social security, healthcare, and other unmet needs (lack of paid sick leave, lack of paid maternity/paternity leave etc.) of these contractors"]. The Commons have been slowly plundered. It's the working class who is suffering. Look around you, homeless people everywhere. This is digital Rentier Capitalism, which enriches the ruling classes, and parasitally sucks dry the working class. "[R]entier incomes from ownership and exploitation of assets are continuing to grow, sucking up ever more of global income. And the state is accentuating these two mega-trends by throwing more subsidies to the rentiers while cutting benefits for the precariat, and while the silicon revolution is channelling more income to those who own the robots, creating a perfect storm of economic insecurity. A way out of this approaching impasse would be to create a new income distribution system in which more of the rent is captured for society, and used to buttress the precariat’s living standards. In 1936, John Maynard Keynes predicted the "euthanasia of the rentier" before the end of the 20th century. It did not happen. Now is the time to do it. One way would be by building up democratic sovereign wealth funds through a levy on various forms of rent, which are neither morally nor economically justifiable." Source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/the-precariat-populism-and-robots-is-basic-income-a-political-imperative/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/the-precariat-populis...
zenexer 6y ago
I’m not at all convinced this is what drivers want, and I haven’t seen any trustworthy sources indicating that it’s true. Furthermore, as a passenger, I’d rather pay a higher cost and know that the driver who I’m entrusting with my life hasn’t been working 24 hours straight just to feed their children—I’d rather not get friendly with a tree just to save five bucks.
- beamatronic 6y ago
  I think you hit on something interesting. No one is enforcing quality or safety really, not any of them, including taxis.
  - covfefeblack 6y ago
    Uber forces drivers offline after working for too many hours a day. Just FYI.
jellicle 6y ago
Slavery was very satisfying to users and slaves, as shown by how long it persisted. Q.E.D. On the contrary, the average Uber driver lasts what, six months or so? Before they quit? Seems like they are profoundly dissatisfied, and only doing this work as a way to ward off starvation and eviction.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  Slavery was very satisfying to slaves? Was it though?
- bryan_w 6y ago
  > Slavery was very satisfying to users and slaves Where did this site go so wrong? I thought this was a place for intelligent discussion.
deelowe 6y ago
I don't buy that drivers would prefer to not have benefits, vacation time, over time pay, or any of the other things that come with being employees.
- okareaman 6y ago
  Yep, some drivers and labor groups wanted to unionize drivers. That was the end goal.
- nickpp 6y ago
  Why do you find hard to believe that there are people valuing their freedom and independence more than those benefits? Not everybody likes being an employee and I think that is great. Choice is a great thing to have.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > there are people valuing their freedom and independence more than those benefits? Not everybody likes being an employee and I think that is great Free to be forced to work off medical debt because they didn't have health insurance, yeah?
    - apta 6y ago
      In which case the state should cover their health benefits, make a vote for that, not for a private employer.
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        Sure. In the absence of governmental provided health insurance, this vote will mean that Uber/Lyft drivers won't get benefits.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        But we do have government provided health insurance for qualified individuals. In addition, Prop 22 also gave drivers health benefits from the employer
snorrah 6y ago
Apparently some drivers did not want this. “Drivers and labor groups opposed Prop 22, saying it would allow companies to sidestep their obligations to provide benefits and standard minimum wages to their workers even as they make billions.” From https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/04/california-election-voters-prop-22-uber-lyft https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/04/california-e...
- eplanit 6y ago
  "Drivers and labor groups" = Drivers who were hoping to unionize, so not very surprising. I think the whole goal of 22 was to expand the ranks of unions. Very glad it failed.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > I think the whole goal of 22 was to expand the ranks of unions. Very glad it failed. You seem ill-informed on the issue. Prop 22 succeeded.
dheera 6y ago
The prop requires 7/8 to repeal it though, which is ridiculous. We should be able to vote on props in chunks, not as an entire atomic unit. We should be able to say yes to the prop but no to 7/8.
ashtonkem 6y ago
It not only creates “rules for me but not for thee”, but it sure as hell looks like big tech companies can just buy laws in CA when they don’t like what the legislature does.
- esc_colon_q 6y ago
  Yes, that is what happens when direct democracy is allowed, anyone who can influence public opinion (rightly or wrongly) can make whatever laws they want, and it's a big reason that many people are opposed to ballot initiatives as a matter of principle.

Causality1 6y ago

Uber and Lyft are examples of the best way independent contracting works. The problem is the way its eating industries that were not built for it. Drivers get the benefits of being independent. Other contractors, for example estheticians, get almost none of them. They don't get to set their own hours and rates.

dmitriid 6y ago
> Uber and Lyft are examples of the best way independent contracting works. "Best way" as in: Uber and Lyft are engaged in price dumping subsidized by endless investor money while at the same time passing most costs onto "independent contractors" who are just people looking for a job in an ever contracting pool of available jobs?

joshribakoff 6y ago

According to the companies lobbying its what the drivers want. No one has established it actually is, and in fact some drivers have quit and spoken out about the apps constantly nagging with propaganda. Also as a rider who’s gotten drunk drivers, idiots going reverse on highway when the exit was missed, or pulling up in beater cars where the engine stalls out, I’ll just say there’s a reason taxis were more expensive and not all riders wanted this outcome. In fact, drivers will be paid below minimum wage since the laws are crafted to only apply minimum wages while they have a passenger in the car

sida 6y ago
Have you talked to drivers? There have been many independent surveys that show drivers disproportionately want to remain contractors.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  People in the US are disproportionately uneducated on how the rest of the world operates. And any idea left of hunting people for sport [1] is dismissed with ultimate disdain. The US is overwhelmingly "why should I pay for some lazy slacker with my hard earned money". And this is especially prevalent among the lower income people. [1] A joke from the internets that goes something like "In the US everything left of literally hunting people for sport is called socialism"

dkural 6y ago

Another "user" is the taxpayer - who ultimately ends up paying for the social security, healthcare, and other unmet needs (lack of paid sick leave, lack of paid maternity/paternity leave etc.) of these contractors. So in a way, by exempting Uber from these rules, but not others, society is handing out a subsidy for both the passengers and drivers.

zests 6y ago
What's the tax burden of the people unemployed by AB5 versus the tax burden of the people lacking benefits by working for the gig economy?
- linuxftw 6y ago
  What's the tax burden of enforcing a minimum wage vs not having one?
bhupy 6y ago
Which is fine, because that's progressively taxed. The alternative is higher prices which flatly burden everyone equally.
- Spivak 6y ago
  Higher prices are naturally regressive and burden people with lower incomes more than higher. If the gov't levied a hypothetical "everyone pay $2k in taxes right now" tax who do you think would be the most impacted?
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > Which is fine No it's not fine [that taxpayers "ultimately end up paying for the social security, healthcare, and other unmet needs (lack of paid sick leave, lack of paid maternity/paternity leave etc.) of these contractors"]. The Commons have been slowly plundered. It's the working class who is suffering. Look around you, homeless people everywhere. This is digital Rentier Capitalism, which enriches the ruling classes, and parasitally sucks dry the working class. "[R]entier incomes from ownership and exploitation of assets are continuing to grow, sucking up ever more of global income. And the state is accentuating these two mega-trends by throwing more subsidies to the rentiers while cutting benefits for the precariat, and while the silicon revolution is channelling more income to those who own the robots, creating a perfect storm of economic insecurity. A way out of this approaching impasse would be to create a new income distribution system in which more of the rent is captured for society, and used to buttress the precariat’s living standards. In 1936, John Maynard Keynes predicted the "euthanasia of the rentier" before the end of the 20th century. It did not happen. Now is the time to do it. One way would be by building up democratic sovereign wealth funds through a levy on various forms of rent, which are neither morally nor economically justifiable." Source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/the-precariat-populism-and-robots-is-basic-income-a-political-imperative/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/the-precariat-populis...

zenexer 6y ago

I’m not at all convinced this is what drivers want, and I haven’t seen any trustworthy sources indicating that it’s true. Furthermore, as a passenger, I’d rather pay a higher cost and know that the driver who I’m entrusting with my life hasn’t been working 24 hours straight just to feed their children—I’d rather not get friendly with a tree just to save five bucks.

beamatronic 6y ago
I think you hit on something interesting. No one is enforcing quality or safety really, not any of them, including taxis.
- covfefeblack 6y ago
  Uber forces drivers offline after working for too many hours a day. Just FYI.

jellicle 6y ago

Slavery was very satisfying to users and slaves, as shown by how long it persisted. Q.E.D. On the contrary, the average Uber driver lasts what, six months or so? Before they quit? Seems like they are profoundly dissatisfied, and only doing this work as a way to ward off starvation and eviction.

Chris2048 6y ago
Slavery was very satisfying to slaves? Was it though?
bryan_w 6y ago
> Slavery was very satisfying to users and slaves Where did this site go so wrong? I thought this was a place for intelligent discussion.

deelowe 6y ago

I don't buy that drivers would prefer to not have benefits, vacation time, over time pay, or any of the other things that come with being employees.

okareaman 6y ago
Yep, some drivers and labor groups wanted to unionize drivers. That was the end goal.
nickpp 6y ago
Why do you find hard to believe that there are people valuing their freedom and independence more than those benefits? Not everybody likes being an employee and I think that is great. Choice is a great thing to have.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > there are people valuing their freedom and independence more than those benefits? Not everybody likes being an employee and I think that is great Free to be forced to work off medical debt because they didn't have health insurance, yeah?
  - apta 6y ago
    In which case the state should cover their health benefits, make a vote for that, not for a private employer.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      Sure. In the absence of governmental provided health insurance, this vote will mean that Uber/Lyft drivers won't get benefits.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        But we do have government provided health insurance for qualified individuals. In addition, Prop 22 also gave drivers health benefits from the employer

snorrah 6y ago

Apparently some drivers did not want this. “Drivers and labor groups opposed Prop 22, saying it would allow companies to sidestep their obligations to provide benefits and standard minimum wages to their workers even as they make billions.” From https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/04/california-election-voters-prop-22-uber-lyft https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/04/california-e...

eplanit 6y ago
"Drivers and labor groups" = Drivers who were hoping to unionize, so not very surprising. I think the whole goal of 22 was to expand the ranks of unions. Very glad it failed.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > I think the whole goal of 22 was to expand the ranks of unions. Very glad it failed. You seem ill-informed on the issue. Prop 22 succeeded.

dheera 6y ago

The prop requires 7/8 to repeal it though, which is ridiculous. We should be able to vote on props in chunks, not as an entire atomic unit. We should be able to say yes to the prop but no to 7/8.

ashtonkem 6y ago

It not only creates “rules for me but not for thee”, but it sure as hell looks like big tech companies can just buy laws in CA when they don’t like what the legislature does.

esc_colon_q 6y ago
Yes, that is what happens when direct democracy is allowed, anyone who can influence public opinion (rightly or wrongly) can make whatever laws they want, and it's a big reason that many people are opposed to ballot initiatives as a matter of principle.