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Designing Raspberry Pi 400
- jjice 6y agoThe most exciting part of the Raspberry Pi to me isn't the current hardware, but what they'll do next for $35. The different ram models in the Pi 4 are great too. As soon as we get a "Pi 500" in a future generation with the 8GB model, I think we can officially replace computers for browser-only users with one of these (especially if the graphics hardware improves for videos). Even now, I wonder if this would be fine for someone who just uses Facebook, email, and YouTube. Maybe a bit of lag here and there, but I'd imagine this would do the trick, right?
- jug 6y agoEven the Raspberry Pi 400 has hardware decoding where the Raspberry Pi Foundation claims up to H.265 video decoding in 4K @ 60 fps in hardware. That sounds great for all sorts of media and streaming! However the fine print looks to be that this may not hold true for Chrome and streaming / YouTube, but offline videos with certain players because Chromium doesn't support hardware acceleration for this API. Chromium supports VAAPI, this uses libva. sigh Why does this Linux hardware decoding story always repeat itself. :-( Still, raw CPU may let it manage at least 1080p at 30 fps but I can't say for sure for anything more.
- kzrdude 6y agohttps://github.com/popcornmix/omxplayer https://github.com/popcornmix/omxplayer and Kodi are the only ones I've found that handle it correctly (and those are related/share code) - that means Kodi is the only place to play 1080p or larger youtube video (omxplayer can stream video from youtube, but doesn't by itself handle the separate audio and video streams).
- entropicdrifter 6y agoLooks like there is a way to enable hardware decoding in Chromium, at least on Raspberry Pi OS: https://lemariva.com/blog/rss/raspberry-pi-4-video-acceleration-decode-chromium https://lemariva.com/blog/rss/raspberry-pi-4-video-accelerat...
- geerlingguy 6y agoI've been testing out both the 8GB Pi 4 and the new Pi 400 overclocked to 2.2 GHz. For many things, both are perfectly adequate. But the slight bit of missing performance (compared to a $300+ low-end celeron or AMD laptop) becomes apparent when you do things like make a video full screen (takes 3-10 seconds), scroll on a JS-heavy page, or have a number of apps open at the same time and switch between them while one of them is doing some heavy processing. It's definitely tolerable and for the price the Pi is a great little computer. Also as soon as I get a few more CMs, I'm going to run some of my web stuff on them from my home since they're silent, power efficient, and adequate now unlike previous generations. But it's not necessarily a standard more expensive desktop replacement for the majority of people yet. As it stands today I think this would be a great computer for a family, a kid learning how to type and use a computer, that sort of thing. Additionally, it would be an excellent computer for those who can't afford a $300+ laptop but already have a TV or can pick up a $40 monitor off Craigslist.
- jacobush 6y agoOne of these things stand out. Making a video should take one or two frames. (Milliseconds.) Something is very wrong with the state of software and GUI. There is nothing inherently slow about making a video full screen, but I understand there is something in todays software pipeline making this a bottleneck.
- kzrdude 6y agoThe Rpi4 plays 720p video full screen at 5% cpu usage (because it has hardware decoding support) - using omxplayer. The hard part is for the hardware decoding support to be enabled in the right places and it seems like kodi is the only place (mpv, vlc don't do it by default)
- kllrnohj 6y agoThe other missing piece for the transition to fullscreen is a robust compositor API, such that the same compositional layer can just have its size changed rather than going from app-compositor to system-composited in a new window. Something like, say, Wayland. <insert that whole debate/debacle here>
- GordonS 6y agoI'm hoping for a Pi 400 with a full-size HDMI port, an integrated track pad, an M.2 slot, and at least the option of more RAM.
- tachyonbeam 6y agoAdding slots would definitely increase the cost, which makes it slightly less accessible. At the end of the day, this computer is a toy, it has limitations and that's OK. However, I'm with you on the full-sized HDMI ports. I don't know why they went with dual mini ports instead of one full-sized port? I think that people wanting to run this with dual monitors will be the clear minority. They could have actually reduced cost with one full-size HDMI port, because the HDMI adapter cable would no longer be needed.
- pedrocr 6y agoThese days the browser is by far the biggest RAM and CPU hog that runs on my system. All the other native stuff is an order of magnitude faster. It's the main reason I'll be replacing my laptop with a Zen2 or ideally Zen3 one as soon as I can find an adequate model. For everything else the Pi would be ideal but the modern web is incredibly inefficient and browser video very poorly optimized.
- qwerty456127 6y agoThe concept is super cool (although hardly original) but I have an Idea of what to add: make a dockable display with built-id battery (to power itself and the Pi) so people would be able to carry it around and use their PIs anywhere like laptops. And, by the way, I can see no reason to use micro HDMI in this version - there's a lot of spare space, why not put full-size HDMI ports? Given so much unused space I personally would even add a USB hub.
- kingosticks 6y ago> I can see no reason to use micro HDMI in this version - there's a lot of spare space, why not put full-size HDMI ports? So to be clear: you are rejecting the board designer's assessment that this was not possible without sacrificing something else?
- qwerty456127 6y agoYes.
- NortySpock 6y agoFrom the article: "It would have been lovely to have had full-size HDMI connectors, but in order to achieve this we would have to remove other functions, or make a bulkier unit."
- kllrnohj 6y agoThat explanation sounds like BS. Full size HDMI is still shorter than the ethernet jack, so vertical space is there. Width would be the only restriction, but there's plenty of that, too.
- graycrow 6y agoMy biggest disappointment is that they did not put enough effort into designing a PCB except to "unfold" the existing RPI4 one. The biggest drawback is the micro-HDMI ports instead of the full size one. Even with space constrains a lot of people would prefer one full-size HDMI port instead of 2 micro. My other wishes are compute module, M2 socket and RTC on the board, but obliously driving cost down prevented this.
- giobox 6y agoThere's only two things I dislike on the Pi 4 today really. No options for fast internal storage, and that tiny HDMI port. Given Pi 4 has reasonable CPU and up to 8GB of RAM, the former is a shame. The full size HDMI port on Pi 3 was compatible with cables virtually everyone already owned. A model in the range with 32 or 64gb fast storage on board would be great - The Pi is useless for many without purchasing an additional SD card for a boot volume anyway!
- dangerbird2 6y agoIIRC, The internal storage thing is a limitation of the system-on-chip they use. They only have access to a single pci lane, so they decided it's better for the form factor and education use-case to connect the lane to a hardwired pair of usb3 ports than a potentially more flexible pci-e port, which would allow nvme storage. FWIW, the new compute module does have built-in access to the pci lane, which gives you the option to use nvme in addition to the onboard flash storage.
- sigstoat 6y agothey've got compute modules with emmc, and and a board you can slap them on, that has full sized HDMI. https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-4-io-board/ https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-4-io-boa... costs more, and takes up more space, but it includes a whole bunch of other goodness. the compute module with 8gb of ram and 32gb of emmc isn't available in small quantities yet, but that should happen sooner or later.
- scruffyherder 6y ago
- techdragon 6y agoAm I the only one disappointed to discover that it has a custom all in one PCB instead of being based on the compute module interfaces?
- geerlingguy 6y agoThis was addressed in the post: "Some folks have asked us why we did not fit the Raspberry Pi Compute Module inside. The reason is that above a certain scale, it generally makes more sense to go with a custom PCB rather than a module with a carrier board. With hundreds of thousands of Raspberry Pi 400 units in the first instance, we are above that scale."
- pkaye 6y agoWhat is the benefit of a compute module interface for this product? You will need a second PCB and additional connector which adds cost.
- alexland 6y agoThe keyboard (and ports) will probably hold up a lot longer than the compute power of the Pi 4, so being able to swap out the internals without throwing away the perfectly good chassis would be a nice win for e-waste.
- a4444f 6y ago> "The PCB shape had to be defined early on so that the industrial designers could get on with the housing design, and I then stared endlessly at the PCB layout, trying to get one of the USB ports to route to the right side without wrecking the signal integrity of the memory or the HDMI; I could not find a way to do this. " I'm not an electronics designer, but why would some kind of a symmetry of the PCB not work?
- pjc50 6y ago"I have no expertise in the relevant area and no specific knowledge of the problem, but I propose a random under-described solution that the experts actually doing the thing definitely won't have thought of" (Hint: you can mirror the board but that doesn't mirror the pinout of components)
- singemonkey 6y agoThe person you responded to is asking a question. I don't get why you need to be so weirdly sarcastic. (I have theories, but they're quite denigrating towards you, so I'll refrain from airing them) Anyway, I look forward to your explanation, and perhaps we can find a way to help you interact more successfully with human beings?
- NLips 6y agoPlease don't be snarky. A better response would have been just your hint: "You can mirror the board but that doesn't mirror the pinout of components"
- geerlingguy 6y agoSee this image from my tear down [1]: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/sites/default/files/images/4-pi400-back.jpeg https://www.jeffgeerling.com/sites/default/files/images/4-pi... You can see it's hard to find a good path from one side of the board (where the usb controller is located) to the other (where the HDMI ports are located) without using some vias or some crazy routing. The HDMI ports could be relocated probably but at the expense of more layers on the PCB (higher cost) or rotating the SoC, which would then necessitate even more of a redesign. [1] https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/raspberry-pi-400-teardown-and-review https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/raspberry-pi-400-tear...
- indymike 6y agoI really like this design. Just in time for Christmas gifts...
- sneak 6y agoWill this keyboard be available in layouts other than UK/European? I ran into some nationalistic issues (“this is a UK product”) with the RPi people when trying to get them to stop explicitly setting a uk locale on their default images. I ask because I run into issues using a keyboard that has enter where I am used to backslash being.
- kingosticks 6y agoThe article states (near the bottom): > Raspberry Pi 400 computer with choice of six keyboard countries (more to follow) You could probably expect the same layouts that they already do for their normal keyboard. They do Japanese but that appears to be about it outside of Europe and North America. However, from https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/technology/raspberry-pi-400-keyboard-with-built-in-computer-launched-will-come-to-india-later-this-year/ar-BB1aDx31?amp%253Bpfr=1 https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/technology/raspberry-pi-400-... > At launch, there are six different region-based keyboard layouts - UK, US, German, French, Italian, and Spanish. The company told The Verge that there are additional variants for the Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Portuguese, and Japanese markets on the way. The Raspberry Pi is available in the US, UK, and France initially, with availability in Italy, Germany, and Spain starting next week. The company also plans to bring the Raspberry Pi in markets like India, Australia, and New Zealand by the end of this year. So maybe there will be some Indian layouts? Note: I have no idea if that is a thing.
- tromp 6y agoI'm very curious to know if the US layout avoids the problem with squished keys around the return key on the UK layout...
- fanf2 6y agoThe US layout is not squished - you can see it in the product brief https://datasheets.raspberrypi.org/pi400/pi400-product-brief.pdf https://datasheets.raspberrypi.org/pi400/pi400-product-brief...
- marban 6y agoDoes anyone have a definitive answer how many Hz the Pi runs on a single 4k monitor?
- mgraupner 6y agoSingle 4k display can be driven with 60Hz, both outputs with 4k can only output 30Hz. [0] https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/hdmi-config.md https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/hdmi...
- kllrnohj 6y agoWait, what? They used the terrible mini HDMI to cram 2 ports onto the Pi 4 just so that it can claim dual 4k at 30hz? Ugh that's a terrible compromise, hopefully the Pi 5 corrects back to just a single full-size HDMI port...
- mgraupner 6y agoNot everybody needs 4k, so perhaps a lot of people are happy they can have a dual screen setup in FullHD with the Pi4 now.
- geerlingguy 6y ago60 Hz if you enable it in the settings, and if your cable and monitor both support it (my monitor doesn't—though it supports 60 Hz through DisplayPort). 30 Hz otherwise.
- BillinghamJ 6y agoThey say 60hz pretty consistently
- tcbawo 6y agoI ordered the Pi 400 for my son along with a cheap 2-port HDMI switch. He has a remote desktop setup with a Chromebook from school. I'm hoping this makes it easy and convenient to use for tinkering.
- baq 6y agothings i'd like to see in future iterations - hopefully ordered by BOM cost (have zero experience with hardware design): - RTC (for the battery replacement argument - I'd be fine using an AA/AAA battery if that's a thing - it is a thing for a couple of my kitchen clocks, though) - female GPIO - headphone/mic jacks or combo jack - full-size HDMI port - 8 GB RAM - NVME storage option - battery - display
- C1sc0cat 6y agoA slightly Bigger case (the Pi 800) could take some of those internally if you are going to add jacks please make it separate ones) or have space for a proper audio hat
- sleepysysadmin 6y agoI'm pretty excited about this. Awesome they fixed the cooling issues.
- sergeykish 6y agoWhy keyboard manufacturers remove Page Up, Page Down? They sit near cursor and works nicely with browsing.
- kingosticks 6y agoWould you have made the keyboard one column wider or weirdly jam them around the arrow keys and then incur the wrath of the Home/End key fans? Personally I think I prefer what they did to minimise the width and provide them all as alternate functions of the arrow keys. I think this is always going to personal preference though.
- sergeykish 6y agoI am glad at least Fn is not swapped with Ctrl. I would prefer to jam them around the arrow keys, alternate Home/End with Fn.
- kingosticks 6y ago100% with you there. Swapping Fn with Ctrl is a serious keyboard crime. Thankfully I've not had to deal with that since my old, old, old laptop That was ~15 years ago and it still annoys me just thinking about it.
- kzrdude 6y agoBy remapping caps lock to control, one doesn't have to worry about it - all the control key available that one could need :)
- drdebug 6y agoThis drives me nuts too. Many laptops have the same problem, fortunately Dell Latitude and Lenovo Thinkpad have the dedicated PgUp and PgDn and these are good laptops. Screen-wise it's the same battle for matte displays (nearly everything seems to be glossy nowadays).
- justin66 6y agoWhere are these manufactured? edit: especially curious about the keyboard
- flohofwoe 6y agoThe article mentions "Sony’s manufacturing facility in Wales".
- justin66 6y agoYeah - I should have been more specific. They make PCBs in the UK and the article mentions final assembly in Wales, but I'm wondering where the keyboards are made. (it would be quite interesting if they have that capability in the UK)
- 908B64B197 6y agoSomething I'm wondering is if they will sell the 400 PCB without the rest of the keyboard attached to it. It's an interesting form factor and could easily be integrated with other keyboards out there.
- walshemj 6y agoMM I wonder if I could fit one into my IBM Type M
- 908B64B197 6y agoI believe there should be enough space for that. Might need custom code to support PS2 that the Model M outputs.
- walshemj 6y agoXT connector for the M you thinking of the F on the AT
- vibrant_mclean 6y agoDoes this work as a regular keyboard for other systems too?
- Zenst 6y agoThat would be kinda cool, not sure if it could be hacked to do that as I know it has USB host ports and if you could present them to another device as a client port - I just don't know. If you could - be the ultimate keylogging keyboard. Me - I'm still trying to find out if the power button is a hard power cut-off or a soft one which will allow a graceful shutdown.
- rdw 6y ago"Power off is achieved by holding down Fn+F10 for two seconds. This is a soft control that negotiates with Linux to shut down, so you don’t corrupt your memory card or your USB drive. Power can be restored by pressing F10 (or Fn+F10)."
- Zenst 6y agoThank you thank you thank you. That is good to hear, making the Pi 400 a way better option for so many for just that feature alone as standard.
- fanf2 6y agoThe keyboard matrix driver is on the main board, and there’s no access to the USB2 bus that connects the matrix driver to the USB controller. So you would have to run the whole Raspberry Pi in USB “gadget mode”, so it pretends to be a device rather than a host. The USB-C power port can also support USB-2 OTG in gadget mode (but it has no high bandwidth features).
- macintux 6y agoFor anyone who missed it, there has been a massive discussion about the device over the past couple of days. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965614
- victorantos 6y agoI got my Pi 400 today. Unfortunately the USB-C port does not work with external monitor, it's only for charging. I was hoping I would have just one cable going from the Pi to my monitor. Maybe it will be possible in the future via a software update?
- geerlingguy 6y agoNo, the USB-C connector is only used for power, and USB 2.0-speed OTG 'gadget' functionality. In the current incarnation of the Pi 4/400/CM4, there is no way to have a USB 3.1 type-C connector that passes through data, video, etc.
- didip 6y agoThe one thing that makes me happy about Raspberry Pi (and its Raspbian OS) vs other Linux build is that it really reminds me of the early days of Personal Computer revolution. Raspberry Pi, similar to early Personal Computers, is so hackable and approachable. It's a great platform for teaching how computer works to people who are interested.
- rchase 6y agoI was happy to see the C64 called out near the end of this. I love that machine, and the Amiga so much. And reading about this Pi 400 the other day truly struck me in the same vein. I honestly don't care much about the couple obvious shortcomings, for $100, this is a purely nostalgia purchase for me. I could do with some case color options, but that's a small niggle given what this thing can do. And I appreciate the focus on price point. Old school design constraints.
- timbit42 6y agoHave you looked into the Atari 8-bit home computers (800, 800XL, 130XE)? They were designed by the same people who designed the Amiga (eg. Jay Miner) and are basically 8-bit Amigas.
- rchase 6y agoYep. I had a C64 and my step-brother had an Atari 800. It was a cool machine as well. Same processor, but radically different graphics and sound chip, if I remember correctly.
- interestica 6y ago> Left-handed? We have already seen a few comments about the USB ports being on the left side of the unit, and the fact that this makes the mouse cable cross over for most right-handed users. The PCB shape had to be defined early on so that the industrial designers could get on with the housing design, and I then stared endlessly at the PCB layout, trying to get one of the USB ports to route to the right side without wrecking the signal integrity of the memory or the HDMI; I could not find a way to do this. Left-handed folks and Bluetooth mouse-owners will be happy at least! Ha! I questioned this in an earlier thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24980083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24980083) It's really great to see a response that highlights the reasons (and an acknowledgement that it was something they truly did try to address!). But, my comment on the promo photo layouts still stand - having the mouse on the left side just for the clean shot must have just stood out for a lot of people. They should just lampshade it - say they're satisfying the lefties for once!
- scintill76 6y agoAs a lefty who mouses right-handed -- do many actually put their mouse on the left side? I started computing at a young age, and I suppose I didn't bother to or think to rearrange the desk so I could use the mouse left-handed. Now, trying to mouse left-handed feels like trying to write right-handed; it's taxing and aggravating to try to muster the precision required.
- sdlion 6y agoOne thing that excites me the most is the hackability of the "included" case. Enough room for a battery, supercap, switches, normal HDMI ports, and still having free of clutter the GPIO pin rows. I could also expect a 3D printed detachable LCD bezel/case connected directly to the microHDMI port and GPIO power rails. But well there are already some raspi based laptops for that matter. I still like the R400 as a "presentation keyboard". Battery pack and HDMI adaptor and it's connected to the classroom projector.
- gadgetoid 6y agoThere's surprisingly little room inside- I've been trying to find somewhere to fit a tiny SSD, but without tossing out the heat sink (arguably one of its strengths since it keeps the temperature in check) it's a really tight squeeze. It's also an absolute horror to get open- no screws, just plastic clips all around the outside edge. First try took a good 10 minutes of prying.
- sdlion 6y agoWhat kind of SSD would be small? Those with a M.2 slot? Or there are actually small form factor SATA cable SSD's? Either way, you would need an extra USB adapter I guess. EDIT: Regarding the heat sink, with the numbers some reviewers have shown shouldn't there be enough material to shed and still having it working fine overclocked? Granted, you lose the very well designed heat sink, but that's part of the hacking. It was not meant to work that way.
- gadgetoid 6y ago"a blog from someone who had milled out the keyboard and integrated a Raspberry Pi 3 Model A+ into it" Us, then? Haha! The dates check out: https://blog.pimoroni.com/putting-a-raspberry-pi-3-a-in-the-raspberry-pi-keyboard/ https://blog.pimoroni.com/putting-a-raspberry-pi-3-a-in-the-...
- zem 6y agoi'm suprised they didn't add a link!
- alexellisuk 6y agoJust realised there's a cheaper "RPi 400" - if you search for "computer" instead of "kit" you should find it. Save 20-30 GBP.
- sfRattan 6y agoImportant to note: the option on their site labeled "computer" rather than "kit" has (AFAIK): no power adapter, no mouse, and no micro-to-regular HDMI cable. Also no included book. Plenty of HN users probably have some or all of these things lying around, but it's important for people to know what they are (or aren't, in this case) buying.
- chrysoprace 6y agoNow I'm looking forward to see people making custom mechanical keyboard projects with the RPi unit from this kit.