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Note: all console generations so far had the option of loading software from physical media (even if there are models without this option, they are not the only

Note: all console generations so far had the option of loading software from physical media (even if there are models without this option, they are not the only model). As long as physical media is an alternative for loading software on consoles, consoles are not as restrictive as iOS devices (even if creation of that physical media requires licensing 1'st party development tools). Apple iOS is the only platform where a company uses its natural monopoly over the hardware and OS to create a monopoly on software distribution.

russli1993 6y ago
no, on consoles, the platform holder has to approve every single game to be made into discs. If your game violates Sony and Microsoft's rules, they won't let you make the discs. Its same with the app store.
- alexvoda 6y ago
  Those restrictions are made through use of trademarks, limiting access to development tools through contracts and code signing. First can be sidestepped by not mentioning the trademarks of the platform holder anywhere. The second can be side stepped through reverse engineering. Third can eventually be hacked out of the device (like the recent encryption key reveal on Intel CPU's) and was not applicable to older generations. Proof of 1 and 2 is the existence of new games developed for ancient consoles. https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-unlikely-but-very-real-resurgence-of-video-game-cartridges https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-unlikely-but-very-real-res...
  - Someone 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_signing#Unsigned_code_in_gaming_and_consumer_devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_signing#Unsigned_code_in_...: “Most console games have to be signed with a secret key designed by the console maker or the game will not load on the console. There are several methods to get unsigned code to execute which include software exploits, the use of a modchip, a technique known as the swap trick or running a softmod.” I don’t see how iOS is different here.
  - machello13 6y ago
    Aren't all of those also true with iOS? Have you heard of Jailbreaking?
    - alexvoda 6y ago
      Of course I heard of Jailbreaking. The difference was that jailbreaking and modding consoles requires modified hardware to run unapproved software (digitally distributed). But reverse engineering the development tools and the signing keys in order to create unapproved disks or cartridges is a viable method to create software for unmodified devices. See FreeDVDBoot for the PS2.
      - machello13 6y ago
        Jailbreaking definitely does not require modified hardware. You also don't need to jailbreak to install 3rd party apps. See http://altstore.io/ http://altstore.io/.
        alexvoda 6y ago
        By modified hardware I mean a device that is not in its default state. Jailbraking alters the firmware making a jailbroken iPhone different from from a mint one. I did not know about that one but I did know of AppValey and others that work based on enterprise certificates. I am not sure what prevents Epic from using this method to create an alternative store or why Apple does not claim that if you want you can have alternative stores on iOS therefore there is no antithrust issue. Of course AppValey and the like require installing a root certificate. Also, none of this allows you to unlock the bootloader.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    "Can be sidestepped" is a far cry from "average users can do this," you know.
    - alexvoda 6y ago
      And yet it is done as proven by new software development efforts for antiquated platforms like the NES, SNES, GBA, N64 or PS2. New cartridges are being made today. The original vendor has no responsibility to make alternative software easy. But I believe they should have a responsibility to not make it impossible or intentionally harder than necessary.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        There is the small fact that, once those platforms became antiquated, the population that constitutes "average users" also changed significantly, skewing vastly more toward the more technical end of the spectrum. They are therefore not valid examples to talk about here, IMO.
mikecsh 6y ago
Don't most consoles require the software loaded from said physical media to be made with the manufactuer's SDK and signed by their private key?
- alexvoda 6y ago
  Yes, but this was not always true and even today that key can eventually be extracted like it was extracted on Intel CPUs.
  - cecja 6y ago
    And the extraction is illegal.
alexvoda 6y ago
Furthermore, Apple is using their created monopoly on software distribution to create a monopoly on payments. Even if you disagree with me on the first part (platform -> distribution) I know of no other case where the second part is also true (distribution -> payments). Goggle may try to impose Google Pay for in-app payments but they do not have the a monopoly on distribution (F-droid, Amazon, Aptoid, etc. exist).

russli1993 6y ago

no, on consoles, the platform holder has to approve every single game to be made into discs. If your game violates Sony and Microsoft's rules, they won't let you make the discs. Its same with the app store.

alexvoda 6y ago
Those restrictions are made through use of trademarks, limiting access to development tools through contracts and code signing. First can be sidestepped by not mentioning the trademarks of the platform holder anywhere. The second can be side stepped through reverse engineering. Third can eventually be hacked out of the device (like the recent encryption key reveal on Intel CPU's) and was not applicable to older generations. Proof of 1 and 2 is the existence of new games developed for ancient consoles. https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-unlikely-but-very-real-resurgence-of-video-game-cartridges https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-unlikely-but-very-real-res...
- Someone 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_signing#Unsigned_code_in_gaming_and_consumer_devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_signing#Unsigned_code_in_...: “Most console games have to be signed with a secret key designed by the console maker or the game will not load on the console. There are several methods to get unsigned code to execute which include software exploits, the use of a modchip, a technique known as the swap trick or running a softmod.” I don’t see how iOS is different here.
- machello13 6y ago
  Aren't all of those also true with iOS? Have you heard of Jailbreaking?
  - alexvoda 6y ago
    Of course I heard of Jailbreaking. The difference was that jailbreaking and modding consoles requires modified hardware to run unapproved software (digitally distributed). But reverse engineering the development tools and the signing keys in order to create unapproved disks or cartridges is a viable method to create software for unmodified devices. See FreeDVDBoot for the PS2.
    - machello13 6y ago
      Jailbreaking definitely does not require modified hardware. You also don't need to jailbreak to install 3rd party apps. See http://altstore.io/ http://altstore.io/.
      - alexvoda 6y ago
        By modified hardware I mean a device that is not in its default state. Jailbraking alters the firmware making a jailbroken iPhone different from from a mint one. I did not know about that one but I did know of AppValey and others that work based on enterprise certificates. I am not sure what prevents Epic from using this method to create an alternative store or why Apple does not claim that if you want you can have alternative stores on iOS therefore there is no antithrust issue. Of course AppValey and the like require installing a root certificate. Also, none of this allows you to unlock the bootloader.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  "Can be sidestepped" is a far cry from "average users can do this," you know.
  - alexvoda 6y ago
    And yet it is done as proven by new software development efforts for antiquated platforms like the NES, SNES, GBA, N64 or PS2. New cartridges are being made today. The original vendor has no responsibility to make alternative software easy. But I believe they should have a responsibility to not make it impossible or intentionally harder than necessary.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      There is the small fact that, once those platforms became antiquated, the population that constitutes "average users" also changed significantly, skewing vastly more toward the more technical end of the spectrum. They are therefore not valid examples to talk about here, IMO.

mikecsh 6y ago

Don't most consoles require the software loaded from said physical media to be made with the manufactuer's SDK and signed by their private key?

alexvoda 6y ago
Yes, but this was not always true and even today that key can eventually be extracted like it was extracted on Intel CPUs.
- cecja 6y ago
  And the extraction is illegal.

alexvoda 6y ago

Furthermore, Apple is using their created monopoly on software distribution to create a monopoly on payments. Even if you disagree with me on the first part (platform -> distribution) I know of no other case where the second part is also true (distribution -> payments). Goggle may try to impose Google Pay for in-app payments but they do not have the a monopoly on distribution (F-droid, Amazon, Aptoid, etc. exist).