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I think you can also argue the opposite. Decriminalizing addiction incentivizes people to use, as well as cushions the potential consequences of their use and p

by holler 6y ago

I think you can also argue the opposite. Decriminalizing addiction incentivizes people to use, as well as cushions the potential consequences of their use and prevents them from hitting rock bottom. I don't think we should shame use and we should offer anyone who's addicted a path out of it through treatment etc.

bird_monster 6y ago
What's the difference between getting addicted to gambling (legal), alcohol (legal), prescription drugs (legal) vs. any criminalized drug? And why does the government draw this arbitrary line? Before we strawman me, I'm not advocating _all_ drugs become legal, but pointing out the absurdity of the legality of it all. Decriminalization brings on a greater opportunity for rehabilitation without entering the legal system (which lots of people never escape from). Keeping more people in the legal system should not be the goal.
- drran 6y ago
  Because government is elected by people. Only small portion of people is addicted to drugs, so majority pushed the law against addicts.
  - tekknik 6y ago
    Because an addict should just be given whatever they’re addicted too to further their misery and keep them addicted.
    - bird_monster 6y ago
      Can you point out how making a drug illegal keeps it out of the hands of addicts? Sure seems like cocaine has been doing just fine while illegal...
      - tekknik 6y ago
        Because you can’t just go to the store and buy it like you can MJ? We are already seeing an uptick in addictions from MJ, which is much less addicting than cocaine. So, can you point to something showing how decriminalization doesn’t increase the availability, and therefore the suffering of the addicts? Also have you ever been an addict? Are you talking out of experience? If not, then kindly sit down and shut up.
        bird_monster 6y ago
        > Because you can’t just go to the store and buy it like you can MJ? We are already seeing an uptick in addictions from MJ, which is much less addicting than cocaine. Responding to a request for source without a source is great. > So, can you point to something showing how decriminalization doesn’t increase the availability Ignoring a request for source and then asking for source. > Also have you ever been an addict? Are you talking out of experience? If not, then kindly sit down and shut up. This is a garbage response and shouldn't be welcome on this site. edit Your response is also junk because decriminalization is not the same as legalization, and decriminalization is not the same as allowing dispensaries (medical or otherwise). So your point just kind doesn't make sense with the subject matter and scenario we're talking about.
- cflynnus 6y ago
  Continuing to make drug sales illegal doesn’t actually do much to limit the availability of drugs. Drugs have never been more accessible or cheap and that trend is likely to continue. I think the government should legalize all drugs so they can control the drug markets and take them away from violent criminal organizations. They can also ensure the drug supplies are safe (devoid of contaminants) as well as tax them to fund social services. There’s always going to be a market for illegal drugs. It gets bigger as time goes on. Better to have it under the control of government and taxed/regulated than underground under the control of cartels
eyelidlessness 6y ago
You can “argue” a lot of things if you ignore evidence. Making use safe and reducing its stigma makes people safer when they do use. It doesn’t increase use or attract new users. Drugs aren’t an app, they don’t need to attract an audience. The audience is already there. The actual facts show that making use safe is key to making the drug that exists either way socially safe, by making recovery a personal process not a public justification of existence process.
- pc86 6y ago
  It seems counterintuitive that there isn't a subset of the population who is dissuaded from drug use because of the danger (that could be danger of getting robbed or killed while purchasing, danger of arrest, danger of falling into addiction, whatever), and thus counterintuitive that making things safer wouldn't have at least some increase in use. Certainly there are more per capita marijuana users in Colorado than Wyoming, right?
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    Cannabis use probably goes up with legalization, but I think that’s largely because the risks associated with the drug are relatively low and widely understood to be low. Legalizing or decriminalizing meth or heroin wouldn't cause people to think “okay now is the time for me to start a potentially life-destroying addiction!”
    - tekknik 6y ago
      Except the US has already had an opioid addiction problem. Hell, I can remember sitting in the chat of an MMO where a particular user was trying to convince everybody, including children, that heroin was safe. And yes, cannabis use did go up with legalization. Those that have troubles with addictions are in trouble.
- tekknik 6y ago
  It does attract new users. You see this with the legalization of MJ. People who are not users or not recent users start using.
SirHound 6y ago
If only there were other countries that had already tried it so we can see how it went there
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  Yup! (Hint for people not following drug legalization/decriminalization policy: Portugal)
  - holler 6y ago
    Again, I question whether removing consequences from drug use incentivizes people to quit, and assert that for many people, having real consequences can be the catalyst to make healthy changes. I am speaking from experience. Of course there are many people in the world and I'm not claiming everyone is the same. I looked up info on Portugal and this is what I found: > The reality is that Portugal’s drug situation has improved significantly in several key areas... However, such improvements are not solely the result of the decriminalization policy; Portugal’s shift towards a more health-centered approach to drugs, as well as wider health and social policy changes, are equally, if not more, responsible for the positive changes observed. Drawing on the most up-to-date evidence, this briefing clarifies the extent of Portugal’s achievement, and debunks some of the erroneous claims made about the country’s innovative approach to drugs. > Portugal decriminalized the personal possession of all drugs in 2001. This means that, while it is no longer a criminal offence to possess drugs for personal use, it is still an administrative violation, punishable by penalties such as fines or community service. So it seems that there are certainly indicators that decriminalization has certain positive outcomes, but it's not entirely due to decriminalization, and as they allege may be more impacted by changes to social health policies and perspectives. And further, they have not completely removed consequence from drug use. There are still civil penalties and other consequences. To me that strikes a sort of balance and seems preferable to cart-blanche decriminalization. https://transformdrugs.org/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight/ https://transformdrugs.org/drug-decriminalisation-in-portuga...
    - 20after4 6y ago
rubyn00bie 6y ago
I CAN argue the moon is made of ten year old sharp cheddar... doing so would make me seem like an idiot. There are times the “other side” is an idiot’s game. Assuming, for no reason, decriminalization will incentivize addiction is absurd. And, if we’re going to be absurd, why waste our time on such woefully boring and depressing absurdities as “decriminalization incentivizes addiction?” I’d much rather debate why the moon’s core must be made of fresh nacho cheese to create its sharp outer layer.
- raunakdag 6y ago
  I heard this reference to arguing the moon is made of cheese in my favorite fanfiction (Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality). Is this a common reference that I don’t know about?
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=the%20moon%20is%20made%20of%20cheese https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=the%20moon%20is%20made%20...
  - gostsamo 6y ago
    Yes, this is an old one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_is_made_of_green_cheese
- eznzt 6y ago
  >Assuming, for no reason, decriminalization will incentivize addiction is absurd. Assuming that allowing people to consume a substance freely will increase the consumption of that substance is absurd?
  - reallydontask 6y ago
    > Assuming that allowing people to consume a substance freely will increase the consumption of that substance is absurd? Not necessarily absurd. However that's not what you're responding to, which was a point about addiction increasing or being incentivised. I don't think I need to point out that addiction is not the same as usage
PrefixKitten 6y ago
Most addicts I know usually aren't too concerned about the legality of their drug.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  That's a given, but are there people that choose not to use now solely because they are concerned about the legality?
  - nailer 6y ago
    I think my experiences are unique, so not really commenting in terms of the politics. Yes, me. I chose not to use now because I am concerned with the legality (or rather the effects of illegality). - When I'm somewhere with legal cannabis I'll go to a shop and buy 5mg Indica pills. - I won't go to a weed dealer where cannabis is illegal and get something that's of dubious quality, potentially washed with something nasty, not tested and hard to dose correctly, and potentially funding violence in my community.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - tekknik 6y ago
    Today you learn people actually follow laws?
- jedmeyers 6y ago
  Since those who are concerned about the legality are not using. Now they have a good opportunity to start.

by holler 6y ago

bird_monster 6y ago

What's the difference between getting addicted to gambling (legal), alcohol (legal), prescription drugs (legal) vs. any criminalized drug? And why does the government draw this arbitrary line? Before we strawman me, I'm not advocating _all_ drugs become legal, but pointing out the absurdity of the legality of it all. Decriminalization brings on a greater opportunity for rehabilitation without entering the legal system (which lots of people never escape from). Keeping more people in the legal system should not be the goal.

drran 6y ago
Because government is elected by people. Only small portion of people is addicted to drugs, so majority pushed the law against addicts.
- tekknik 6y ago
  Because an addict should just be given whatever they’re addicted too to further their misery and keep them addicted.
  - bird_monster 6y ago
    Can you point out how making a drug illegal keeps it out of the hands of addicts? Sure seems like cocaine has been doing just fine while illegal...
    - tekknik 6y ago
      Because you can’t just go to the store and buy it like you can MJ? We are already seeing an uptick in addictions from MJ, which is much less addicting than cocaine. So, can you point to something showing how decriminalization doesn’t increase the availability, and therefore the suffering of the addicts? Also have you ever been an addict? Are you talking out of experience? If not, then kindly sit down and shut up.
      - bird_monster 6y ago
        > Because you can’t just go to the store and buy it like you can MJ? We are already seeing an uptick in addictions from MJ, which is much less addicting than cocaine. Responding to a request for source without a source is great. > So, can you point to something showing how decriminalization doesn’t increase the availability Ignoring a request for source and then asking for source. > Also have you ever been an addict? Are you talking out of experience? If not, then kindly sit down and shut up. This is a garbage response and shouldn't be welcome on this site. edit Your response is also junk because decriminalization is not the same as legalization, and decriminalization is not the same as allowing dispensaries (medical or otherwise). So your point just kind doesn't make sense with the subject matter and scenario we're talking about.
cflynnus 6y ago
Continuing to make drug sales illegal doesn’t actually do much to limit the availability of drugs. Drugs have never been more accessible or cheap and that trend is likely to continue. I think the government should legalize all drugs so they can control the drug markets and take them away from violent criminal organizations. They can also ensure the drug supplies are safe (devoid of contaminants) as well as tax them to fund social services. There’s always going to be a market for illegal drugs. It gets bigger as time goes on. Better to have it under the control of government and taxed/regulated than underground under the control of cartels

eyelidlessness 6y ago

You can “argue” a lot of things if you ignore evidence. Making use safe and reducing its stigma makes people safer when they do use. It doesn’t increase use or attract new users. Drugs aren’t an app, they don’t need to attract an audience. The audience is already there. The actual facts show that making use safe is key to making the drug that exists either way socially safe, by making recovery a personal process not a public justification of existence process.

pc86 6y ago
It seems counterintuitive that there isn't a subset of the population who is dissuaded from drug use because of the danger (that could be danger of getting robbed or killed while purchasing, danger of arrest, danger of falling into addiction, whatever), and thus counterintuitive that making things safer wouldn't have at least some increase in use. Certainly there are more per capita marijuana users in Colorado than Wyoming, right?
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  Cannabis use probably goes up with legalization, but I think that’s largely because the risks associated with the drug are relatively low and widely understood to be low. Legalizing or decriminalizing meth or heroin wouldn't cause people to think “okay now is the time for me to start a potentially life-destroying addiction!”
  - tekknik 6y ago
    Except the US has already had an opioid addiction problem. Hell, I can remember sitting in the chat of an MMO where a particular user was trying to convince everybody, including children, that heroin was safe. And yes, cannabis use did go up with legalization. Those that have troubles with addictions are in trouble.
tekknik 6y ago
It does attract new users. You see this with the legalization of MJ. People who are not users or not recent users start using.

SirHound 6y ago

If only there were other countries that had already tried it so we can see how it went there

eyelidlessness 6y ago
Yup! (Hint for people not following drug legalization/decriminalization policy: Portugal)
- holler 6y ago
  Again, I question whether removing consequences from drug use incentivizes people to quit, and assert that for many people, having real consequences can be the catalyst to make healthy changes. I am speaking from experience. Of course there are many people in the world and I'm not claiming everyone is the same. I looked up info on Portugal and this is what I found: > The reality is that Portugal’s drug situation has improved significantly in several key areas... However, such improvements are not solely the result of the decriminalization policy; Portugal’s shift towards a more health-centered approach to drugs, as well as wider health and social policy changes, are equally, if not more, responsible for the positive changes observed. Drawing on the most up-to-date evidence, this briefing clarifies the extent of Portugal’s achievement, and debunks some of the erroneous claims made about the country’s innovative approach to drugs. > Portugal decriminalized the personal possession of all drugs in 2001. This means that, while it is no longer a criminal offence to possess drugs for personal use, it is still an administrative violation, punishable by penalties such as fines or community service. So it seems that there are certainly indicators that decriminalization has certain positive outcomes, but it's not entirely due to decriminalization, and as they allege may be more impacted by changes to social health policies and perspectives. And further, they have not completely removed consequence from drug use. There are still civil penalties and other consequences. To me that strikes a sort of balance and seems preferable to cart-blanche decriminalization. https://transformdrugs.org/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight/ https://transformdrugs.org/drug-decriminalisation-in-portuga...
  - 20after4 6y ago

rubyn00bie 6y ago

I CAN argue the moon is made of ten year old sharp cheddar... doing so would make me seem like an idiot. There are times the “other side” is an idiot’s game. Assuming, for no reason, decriminalization will incentivize addiction is absurd. And, if we’re going to be absurd, why waste our time on such woefully boring and depressing absurdities as “decriminalization incentivizes addiction?” I’d much rather debate why the moon’s core must be made of fresh nacho cheese to create its sharp outer layer.

raunakdag 6y ago
I heard this reference to arguing the moon is made of cheese in my favorite fanfiction (Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality). Is this a common reference that I don’t know about?
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=the%20moon%20is%20made%20of%20cheese https://html.duckduckgo.com/html?q=the%20moon%20is%20made%20...
- gostsamo 6y ago
  Yes, this is an old one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_is_made_of_green_cheese
eznzt 6y ago
>Assuming, for no reason, decriminalization will incentivize addiction is absurd. Assuming that allowing people to consume a substance freely will increase the consumption of that substance is absurd?
- reallydontask 6y ago
  > Assuming that allowing people to consume a substance freely will increase the consumption of that substance is absurd? Not necessarily absurd. However that's not what you're responding to, which was a point about addiction increasing or being incentivised. I don't think I need to point out that addiction is not the same as usage

PrefixKitten 6y ago

Most addicts I know usually aren't too concerned about the legality of their drug.

Rebelgecko 6y ago
That's a given, but are there people that choose not to use now solely because they are concerned about the legality?
- nailer 6y ago
  I think my experiences are unique, so not really commenting in terms of the politics. Yes, me. I chose not to use now because I am concerned with the legality (or rather the effects of illegality). - When I'm somewhere with legal cannabis I'll go to a shop and buy 5mg Indica pills. - I won't go to a weed dealer where cannabis is illegal and get something that's of dubious quality, potentially washed with something nasty, not tested and hard to dose correctly, and potentially funding violence in my community.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- tekknik 6y ago
  Today you learn people actually follow laws?
jedmeyers 6y ago
Since those who are concerned about the legality are not using. Now they have a good opportunity to start.