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Well, the thing is, in Germany we‘ve experienced first hand what happens when hatred goes rampant - when criticism turns to ostracism, hateful words to hateful

by veddox 6y ago

Well, the thing is, in Germany we‘ve experienced first hand what happens when hatred goes rampant - when criticism turns to ostracism, hateful words to hateful deeds, inflammatory speeches to flame-filled cities. And I‘m not just talking about Hitler and the Holocaust. Elected representatives of the people, from village mayors to members of parliament, are giving up their office because they can no longer bear the barrage of abuse and intimidation thrown at them. What starts online doesn‘t stay online. The current mayor of Cologne was stabbed the night before her election, a top Hessian state official shot dead in his own garden. Democracy cannot survive indefinitely under an atmosphere of fear and hatred. If you want more examples, look at the end of the Roman republic, the Weimar republic, the pre-Civil-War United States. Free speech is a precious right. But if you abuse this right to undermine the very democracy that gives it to you, you have thereby forfeited it.

zekki 6y ago
Perfectly said!
AareyBaba 6y ago
"In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance" - Karl Popper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- veddox 6y ago
  We have the concept of the defensive democracy („wehrhafte Demokratie“), which is basically that.
leetcrew 6y ago
the roman republic is an odd example to bring up. "hate" as we understand it today had very little to do with the transition to empire. it was much more an outcome of internal squabbles among elites and the failure to separate military and political power. ironically, the assassination of caesar may well have hastened the fall of the republic. > Free speech is a precious right. But if you abuse this right to undermine the very democracy that gives it to you, you have thereby forfeited it. also, what? we can debate the value of free speech, but it doesn't seem like much of a right if it can be lost so easily.
- veddox 6y ago
  > "hate" as we understand it today had very little to do with the transition to empire Fair point. What I was thinking of was the general decline of respect for the (semi-democratic) republican system of governance. The Republic crumbled when politicians stopped using the „constitutional“ means of settling differences and turned to gangs of thugs instead. So I wasn‘t so much thinking of „hate speech“ as of „anti-democratic speech“. A core criterium of German law is loyalty to the constitution. A number of political rights (the right to free speech, the right to form a political party, the right to hold public office or be employed by the government) are predicated upon the citizen‘s constitutional loyalty, his/her upholding of our democratic values. The idea is that our democracy does not want to aid its enemies in its own destruction, as was partly the case in Weimar. > it doesn't seem like much of a right if it can be lost so easily Multiple US states refuse ex-convicts the right to vote. Talking about convicts: prison sentences are nothing but the government stripping you of your right to free movement. Capital punishment is you being denied the right to life. You may object to all three of these forms of punishment, but the fact remains that all countries restrict peoples‘ rights in some way or another. (What constitutes just cause for such a restriction of rights is a fascinating and tough question, but one I unfortunately cannot answer...)

by veddox 6y ago

zekki 6y ago

Perfectly said!

AareyBaba 6y ago

"In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance" - Karl Popper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

veddox 6y ago
We have the concept of the defensive democracy („wehrhafte Demokratie“), which is basically that.

leetcrew 6y ago

the roman republic is an odd example to bring up. "hate" as we understand it today had very little to do with the transition to empire. it was much more an outcome of internal squabbles among elites and the failure to separate military and political power. ironically, the assassination of caesar may well have hastened the fall of the republic. > Free speech is a precious right. But if you abuse this right to undermine the very democracy that gives it to you, you have thereby forfeited it. also, what? we can debate the value of free speech, but it doesn't seem like much of a right if it can be lost so easily.

veddox 6y ago
> "hate" as we understand it today had very little to do with the transition to empire Fair point. What I was thinking of was the general decline of respect for the (semi-democratic) republican system of governance. The Republic crumbled when politicians stopped using the „constitutional“ means of settling differences and turned to gangs of thugs instead. So I wasn‘t so much thinking of „hate speech“ as of „anti-democratic speech“. A core criterium of German law is loyalty to the constitution. A number of political rights (the right to free speech, the right to form a political party, the right to hold public office or be employed by the government) are predicated upon the citizen‘s constitutional loyalty, his/her upholding of our democratic values. The idea is that our democracy does not want to aid its enemies in its own destruction, as was partly the case in Weimar. > it doesn't seem like much of a right if it can be lost so easily Multiple US states refuse ex-convicts the right to vote. Talking about convicts: prison sentences are nothing but the government stripping you of your right to free movement. Capital punishment is you being denied the right to life. You may object to all three of these forms of punishment, but the fact remains that all countries restrict peoples‘ rights in some way or another. (What constitutes just cause for such a restriction of rights is a fascinating and tough question, but one I unfortunately cannot answer...)