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No we don't. The law is against insulting people, not against "saying stuff we don't like on the internet". The laws predate the internet by decades. The freedo

No we don't. The law is against insulting people, not against "saying stuff we don't like on the internet". The laws predate the internet by decades. The freedom to express your opinion is constitutionally protected, this does not cover all speech acts, in Germany and everywhere (see slander laws). Courts protect this constitutional guarantee, as several recent cases showed. Vigorously enforcing laws against insults and other speech acts that are hostile towards constructive discourse seems to me to be the only way forward when it comes to restoring a semblance of sanity to societal conversation. The social networks by themselves have proven to be utterly incapable of doing so. The most comprehensive survey on various freedoms in the World that I know of ranks Germany at 94, ahead of France at 90 and the US at 86. (100 is the perfect score) https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou... Freedom of speech is also a guaranteed right in the German constitution, as it is in the European Convention on Human Rights and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. In every jurisdiction there are limits to the freedom of speech. This applies to the US as well as everywhere else: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

xupybd 6y ago
I'm not sure how insulting people can be a crime?
- s9w 6y ago
  Insulting is explicitly illegal in Germany. In person or internet, doesn't matter.
  - tpush 6y ago
    You’re getting downvoted, but it’s true: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1812 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - s9w 6y ago
      There's a group of people downvoting everything I post, even about c++. No worries
    - antpls 6y ago
      From the link, not every insult is punished : "Mutual exchange of insults If an insult is immediately reciprocated, the court may declare one or both of the persons involved in the exchange of insults not to be liable to punishment."
Lambdanaut 6y ago
In this case, the content of the insult is a subset of "stuff we don't like" said over the Internet.
- mariusor 6y ago
  Well, not really. On a summary Wikipedia[0] investigation you can find that the UN definition of freedom of speech also contains caveats[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#cite_note-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#cite_note-3 [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20080705115024/http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080705115024/http://www2.ohchr...
systemvoltage 6y ago
Can you now explain what is considered hate speech? You've just painted a pretty convincing argument on one side (Freedom of Speech).
- strawberrypuree 6y ago
  Here's the English translation of Section 130: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1333 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg... Which might help explain what is considered hate speech. These discussions tend to devolve (as all good online discussions do) into the nuance and what-about's. It's the role of the courts to determine that, and it's an ever-evolving collection of legal precedent as a result.
op03 6y ago
Above all, dont insult the German football team.
- type0 6y ago
  and politicians
deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ummonk 6y ago
Freedom of speech is not guaranteed in Germany. If it were, holocaust denial wouldn’t get people jailed.
- s9w 6y ago
  Well it's one of the typical lawyer tricks. There is a paragraph in the constitution that explicitly grants you freedom of speech. There's also others that more or less say you get to jail for saying xyz. Unfortunately, law is not a program that has to compile. Then put selective enforcement on top and you have a very powerful weapon that gets great PR ("against hate").
  - Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd 6y ago
    No, there is no such paragraph. The German constitution guarantees freedom of opinion - not speech. So you can’t get prosecuted for disliking someone (and saying so) but you can for saying insulting or untrue (e.g. holocaust denial) things - those are not opinions.
    - s9w 6y ago
      Well you can get convicted for saying you like a joke. That did happen.
- InterMilan 6y ago
  Remind me of a time I was in Germany. I was out with some friends (none of us was german) and one friend joked about hitler, he put a finger over his mustache and did the hitler salute to tell a joke. A guy who was standing next to us came running and said you will get jailed if the police who were close to us see you. So much for freedom to tell a joke. It seems this is the norm, so be careful when in Germany [1]. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40842853 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40842853
cblconfederate 6y ago
If that standard was applied worldwide, there would be hundreds of lawsuits here, on HN every day (and HN is heavily moderated). It s one of the reasons why no social media can grow in europe.
- content_sesh 6y ago
  There are hundreds of attacks every day on HN against people on account of their belonging to a national, racial, or religious group? Guess I've been missing all the spicy comments
  - cblconfederate 6y ago
    parent said "The law is against insulting people"
  - type0 6y ago
    yeah I know these terrible attacks hurt someones feelings every single day, by that measure half of HN posters should be raided, and the other half deserves to be raided for being spineless spice hating mongrels

xupybd 6y ago

I'm not sure how insulting people can be a crime?

s9w 6y ago
Insulting is explicitly illegal in Germany. In person or internet, doesn't matter.
- tpush 6y ago
  You’re getting downvoted, but it’s true: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1812 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - s9w 6y ago
    There's a group of people downvoting everything I post, even about c++. No worries
  - antpls 6y ago
    From the link, not every insult is punished : "Mutual exchange of insults If an insult is immediately reciprocated, the court may declare one or both of the persons involved in the exchange of insults not to be liable to punishment."

Lambdanaut 6y ago

In this case, the content of the insult is a subset of "stuff we don't like" said over the Internet.

mariusor 6y ago
Well, not really. On a summary Wikipedia[0] investigation you can find that the UN definition of freedom of speech also contains caveats[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#cite_note-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#cite_note-3 [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20080705115024/http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080705115024/http://www2.ohchr...

systemvoltage 6y ago

Can you now explain what is considered hate speech? You've just painted a pretty convincing argument on one side (Freedom of Speech).

strawberrypuree 6y ago
Here's the English translation of Section 130: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1333 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg... Which might help explain what is considered hate speech. These discussions tend to devolve (as all good online discussions do) into the nuance and what-about's. It's the role of the courts to determine that, and it's an ever-evolving collection of legal precedent as a result.

op03 6y ago

Above all, dont insult the German football team.

type0 6y ago
and politicians

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ummonk 6y ago

Freedom of speech is not guaranteed in Germany. If it were, holocaust denial wouldn’t get people jailed.

s9w 6y ago
Well it's one of the typical lawyer tricks. There is a paragraph in the constitution that explicitly grants you freedom of speech. There's also others that more or less say you get to jail for saying xyz. Unfortunately, law is not a program that has to compile. Then put selective enforcement on top and you have a very powerful weapon that gets great PR ("against hate").
- Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd 6y ago
  No, there is no such paragraph. The German constitution guarantees freedom of opinion - not speech. So you can’t get prosecuted for disliking someone (and saying so) but you can for saying insulting or untrue (e.g. holocaust denial) things - those are not opinions.
  - s9w 6y ago
    Well you can get convicted for saying you like a joke. That did happen.
InterMilan 6y ago
Remind me of a time I was in Germany. I was out with some friends (none of us was german) and one friend joked about hitler, he put a finger over his mustache and did the hitler salute to tell a joke. A guy who was standing next to us came running and said you will get jailed if the police who were close to us see you. So much for freedom to tell a joke. It seems this is the norm, so be careful when in Germany [1]. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40842853 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40842853

cblconfederate 6y ago

If that standard was applied worldwide, there would be hundreds of lawsuits here, on HN every day (and HN is heavily moderated). It s one of the reasons why no social media can grow in europe.

content_sesh 6y ago
There are hundreds of attacks every day on HN against people on account of their belonging to a national, racial, or religious group? Guess I've been missing all the spicy comments
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  parent said "The law is against insulting people"
- type0 6y ago
  yeah I know these terrible attacks hurt someones feelings every single day, by that measure half of HN posters should be raided, and the other half deserves to be raided for being spineless spice hating mongrels