6 ms·

It's a good question, but I think one of the issues is that physical networks are a natural monopoly in the same way as most public utilities, so it's not just

It's a good question, but I think one of the issues is that physical networks are a natural monopoly in the same way as most public utilities, so it's not just about enabling more competition but about establishing a regulatory framework around that competition, much like exists with airports and railways. OR, alternatively, changing to a public sector provision model like plumbing or roads. What actually bothers me the most is the rules that (in most places) prohibit cities and towns from offering new municipal broadband service as a competitive offering. This used to be more common in smaller towns that had not been able to get good commercial service, and it adds valuable options and competition, but my understanding is that it's extremely hard for cities who don't already have municipal broadband to start offering it now.

C1sc0cat 6y ago
Local Loop Unbundling works fine in the UK
- techsupporter 6y ago
  And worked pretty well[0] for the seven or so glorious years we had it in the United States before the Bush FCC ended it. 0 - Yes, I know, it wasn't perfect or even "great" most of the time but that was largely because the incumbent carriers dragging their feet on doing literally anything and the FCC not enforcing the competition rules. And when, largely out of spite, the copper-based incumbents simply didn't do anything to upgrade their networks while the not-at-all-regulated cable companies blew past them in speed and reliability, people switched in droves which gave the incumbent phone companies even more reason to throw up their hands and say "not worth it."
thatfrenchguy 6y ago
I mean, if it's a natural monopoly, then it should be public. Roads aren't private right ?
- milkytron 6y ago
  Not all roads are public. Many toll roads are actually privately owned by the toll company.
  - patmorgan23 6y ago
    Most toll roads are actually public but then under a management contract with a private party for toll collection/enforcement.
- nostromo 6y ago
  I'd compare it to utilities like PG&E or ConEd. These are private companies. But since they're considered natural monopolies, they are more highly regulated than a typical company.
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    And that has not worked out well for PG&E. Or rather, for its customers. I'm sure its executive team is doing fine.
- polynomial 6y ago
  Some are.
treis 6y ago
>physical networks are a natural monopoly in the same way as most public utilities But ISPs are not, generally speaking, a monopoly. There's usually at least two wired options and they compete with cellular and satellite options. Profit margins generally reflect this. The large ISPs are around the average for the S&P 500.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Low latency, low packet loss, high upload and download bandwidth, unmetered internet service is certainly a monopoly. None of this is possible with wireless. You're lucky if you live in a place with symmetric gigabit fiber service. There's only one provider. And quite frankly, there's no need to string multiple fibers to every house. Everyone else has a subpar coaxial connection from Comcast/Cox/Spectrum.
  - treis 6y ago
    If you segment any market enough eventually you end up with a monopoly. And your segment is unreasonable. Very very few people need symmetric gigabit fiber. Using that as the criteria is like saying Lamborghini has a monopoly on cars because they're the only one that makes one that goes 200 mph.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      If you're laying fiber, it costs next to nothing to make it gigabit versus 10Mbit. The issue is that fiber internet itself is a much better product than non fiber internet. And tell the people who have kids and are also working from home that they can't stream video because an HD video stream is 3Mbps+ and 4 people in a house streaming at the same time at high quality is basically impossible. Some people also have security cameras streaming upload too. The applications for increased bandwidth are numerous. Remote doctor visits can use high quality video, you can stream things from your home NAS, backups are quicker.
- gnopgnip 6y ago
  >There's usually at least two wired options Per https://www.fcc.gov/internet-access-services-reports https://www.fcc.gov/internet-access-services-reports approximately only about 25% of census blocks have two or more providers for wired internet. Often within a census block most households will only have one option.
WalterBright 6y ago
> one of the issues is that physical networks are a natural monopoly When telephones were first installed, competing telephone companies stringing wires sprang up everywhere. Regulation put a stop to that.

C1sc0cat 6y ago

Local Loop Unbundling works fine in the UK

techsupporter 6y ago
And worked pretty well[0] for the seven or so glorious years we had it in the United States before the Bush FCC ended it. 0 - Yes, I know, it wasn't perfect or even "great" most of the time but that was largely because the incumbent carriers dragging their feet on doing literally anything and the FCC not enforcing the competition rules. And when, largely out of spite, the copper-based incumbents simply didn't do anything to upgrade their networks while the not-at-all-regulated cable companies blew past them in speed and reliability, people switched in droves which gave the incumbent phone companies even more reason to throw up their hands and say "not worth it."

thatfrenchguy 6y ago

I mean, if it's a natural monopoly, then it should be public. Roads aren't private right ?

milkytron 6y ago
Not all roads are public. Many toll roads are actually privately owned by the toll company.
- patmorgan23 6y ago
  Most toll roads are actually public but then under a management contract with a private party for toll collection/enforcement.
nostromo 6y ago
I'd compare it to utilities like PG&E or ConEd. These are private companies. But since they're considered natural monopolies, they are more highly regulated than a typical company.
- tshaddox 6y ago
  And that has not worked out well for PG&E. Or rather, for its customers. I'm sure its executive team is doing fine.
polynomial 6y ago
Some are.

treis 6y ago

>physical networks are a natural monopoly in the same way as most public utilities But ISPs are not, generally speaking, a monopoly. There's usually at least two wired options and they compete with cellular and satellite options. Profit margins generally reflect this. The large ISPs are around the average for the S&P 500.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
Low latency, low packet loss, high upload and download bandwidth, unmetered internet service is certainly a monopoly. None of this is possible with wireless. You're lucky if you live in a place with symmetric gigabit fiber service. There's only one provider. And quite frankly, there's no need to string multiple fibers to every house. Everyone else has a subpar coaxial connection from Comcast/Cox/Spectrum.
- treis 6y ago
  If you segment any market enough eventually you end up with a monopoly. And your segment is unreasonable. Very very few people need symmetric gigabit fiber. Using that as the criteria is like saying Lamborghini has a monopoly on cars because they're the only one that makes one that goes 200 mph.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    If you're laying fiber, it costs next to nothing to make it gigabit versus 10Mbit. The issue is that fiber internet itself is a much better product than non fiber internet. And tell the people who have kids and are also working from home that they can't stream video because an HD video stream is 3Mbps+ and 4 people in a house streaming at the same time at high quality is basically impossible. Some people also have security cameras streaming upload too. The applications for increased bandwidth are numerous. Remote doctor visits can use high quality video, you can stream things from your home NAS, backups are quicker.
gnopgnip 6y ago
>There's usually at least two wired options Per https://www.fcc.gov/internet-access-services-reports https://www.fcc.gov/internet-access-services-reports approximately only about 25% of census blocks have two or more providers for wired internet. Often within a census block most households will only have one option.

WalterBright 6y ago

> one of the issues is that physical networks are a natural monopoly When telephones were first installed, competing telephone companies stringing wires sprang up everywhere. Regulation put a stop to that.