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Not too long ago, many people on HN were deliberating on how Ant is a national security threat because Jack Ma is a CCP member, implying that Ant is basically a

Not too long ago, many people on HN were deliberating on how Ant is a national security threat because Jack Ma is a CCP member, implying that Ant is basically a state-controlled organization. I wonder what those people have to say now. Right now I am neither arguing whether it is or isn't a national security concern. I just want to highlight that people's general understanding of how things work in China is very poor, and that one should be careful with speculations like that. At the very least I think more people should recognize that the Chinese government and the CCP are not monoliths, and that the distance between "the boss of the company is a CCP member" and "the company is state-controlled" is larger than what many think.

sidlls 6y ago
It is and it isn’t. China is just special in the way that fraud and corruption commingle with business and government. It isn’t unique by any stretch, but it’s certainly...different. I’ll put it this way: I take an extremely skeptical view of basically anything originating out of China in matters of this sort. I wouldn’t be surprised if “Ant is basically a state run company” and “Ma/Ant aren’t necessarily entirely instruments of the Chinese government” are both true in different contexts. That’s just how screwed up it is.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  In China, support for the US, and western liberalism in general, is dropping. In 2020 it has reached a new low. One of the reasons for this is because mainland Chinese people feel that the western world doesn't judge them fairly, that the western world will never accept them. Your comment is a good representation of what they're thinking of. Your comment basically comes down to "China can do no good". It doesn't matter what China's concrete actions are — in the end, an interpretation for those actions will be found in order to fit the narrative that China is sinister. You are in your full right to do this. But such an attitude has implications for the other party. Why should Chinese people support western opinions, if they will never be accepted no matter what they do? Sometimes, China is willing to concede on a few issues in order to gain improved relations. But if improving relations is impossible, no matter how many concessions, then why should they concede anything? If one is treated like an enemy anyway, then one may as well become a real enemy, since there is no reputation to be gained. For example, I've been arguing for a while that one of the reasons why they went ahead with the Hong Kong National Security Law after a year, is because they realized that they can't gain a better relationship with the US by not introducing the security law, so may as well do it and gain more social stability. But many people can't comprehend this idea because they're too stuck on the "China bad" narrative. I am not arguing that China is all good — of course it isn't, China has lots of issues. But being skeptical of everything? In this context, excessive cynicism is dangerous. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I fear that some day all this leads to increased polarization, and a hot war.

sidlls 6y ago

It is and it isn’t. China is just special in the way that fraud and corruption commingle with business and government. It isn’t unique by any stretch, but it’s certainly...different. I’ll put it this way: I take an extremely skeptical view of basically anything originating out of China in matters of this sort. I wouldn’t be surprised if “Ant is basically a state run company” and “Ma/Ant aren’t necessarily entirely instruments of the Chinese government” are both true in different contexts. That’s just how screwed up it is.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
In China, support for the US, and western liberalism in general, is dropping. In 2020 it has reached a new low. One of the reasons for this is because mainland Chinese people feel that the western world doesn't judge them fairly, that the western world will never accept them. Your comment is a good representation of what they're thinking of. Your comment basically comes down to "China can do no good". It doesn't matter what China's concrete actions are — in the end, an interpretation for those actions will be found in order to fit the narrative that China is sinister. You are in your full right to do this. But such an attitude has implications for the other party. Why should Chinese people support western opinions, if they will never be accepted no matter what they do? Sometimes, China is willing to concede on a few issues in order to gain improved relations. But if improving relations is impossible, no matter how many concessions, then why should they concede anything? If one is treated like an enemy anyway, then one may as well become a real enemy, since there is no reputation to be gained. For example, I've been arguing for a while that one of the reasons why they went ahead with the Hong Kong National Security Law after a year, is because they realized that they can't gain a better relationship with the US by not introducing the security law, so may as well do it and gain more social stability. But many people can't comprehend this idea because they're too stuck on the "China bad" narrative. I am not arguing that China is all good — of course it isn't, China has lots of issues. But being skeptical of everything? In this context, excessive cynicism is dangerous. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I fear that some day all this leads to increased polarization, and a hot war.