6 ms·

> The "free market" is literally designed to make that not happen, if someone else with more money is out there and willing to pay more money than the hospitals

by barumi 6y ago

> The "free market" is literally designed to make that not happen, if someone else with more money is out there and willing to pay more money than the hospitals. The free market is not designed at all to do anything, let alone acts with a bolted-on moral load. What the free market allows is that economic actors like the hospital are free to purchase their supplies from anyone at all from anywhere, and allows anyone who has any interest in producing said supplies to present their offering. That's it. I live in a country where, when the demand for N95 masks started, had a few unrelated corporations quickly enter the market with their own product. I'm talking about companies ranging from office supplies to coffee makers. Hell, even beer producers quickly entered the hand sanitizer market. Consequently prices dropped drastically and not only is there no shortage of protective equipment but it's also affordable. That's what happens in a free market. How come you're talking about this sort of stuff not happening in your country, and still you talk about a free market?

TeMPOraL 6y ago
> I live in a country where, when the demand for N95 masks started, had a few unrelated corporations quickly enter the market with their own product. I'm talking about companies ranging from office supplies to coffee makers. Hell, even beer producers quickly entered the hand sanitizer market. Consequently prices dropped drastically and not only is there no shortage of protective equipment but it's also affordable. Interesting, because IIRC there were global shortages of both hand sanitizer and N95 masks up to at least May. There were a lot of scammy products sold in between March and May, though. The problem with price gouging in large-scale emergencies is that companies just can't retool that quickly, especially when - as is the case with both hand sanitizer and N95 respirators - a complex supply chain is involved. That takes months, and through those months, you're dealing with extremely inefficient distribution of goods - from the humanitarian/life saving point of view. Free market does what it does. For instance, price the poorest out. A well-known example of the free market at work was in the US, when some people drove a van around towns and villages in their state and bought out all hand sanitizer to resell it on-line (with significant markup), thus depriving less wealthy communities of access to hand sanitizer.
baq 6y ago
If you believe the free market isn’t designed you’re in for a few bad experiences. Rules of the market are absolutely required to be consciously created, otherwise the free market becomes a monopoly. Remember that anarchy is just a prelude to despotism, both economically and politically.
kristopolous 6y ago
It also assumes everyone has the same power, which is false And that everyone has perfect infinite information, which is impossible. And that externalities are irrelevant, which is false And that all options are equally accessible, which doesn't exist. And that people act in perfectly rational objective ways, which isn't how humans behave. And that everyone instantaneously knows the utility maximization function of all potential transactions, which doesn't ever happen either. And that firms will always prefer competition over cooperation, which is the exact opposite of reality. And that any tricks such as cornering, price fixing, ramping, runs, pump and dumps, luring, spoofing, churning, pools, don't exist, which is also false. The foundation it's built on is a fundamental fiction. Conclusions based on it occasionally resembling reality are exceedingly rare and merely coincidental - it's like a form of astrology with more equations and charts. And the real clincher is the advocates are only interested in defending their ideological agenda like some kind of religious zealot. When anyone walks in thinking they already have the answer before hearing any of the questions, watch out - especially if it's the same exact answer every time.
- nickpp 6y ago
  And still, against all your strongly held beliefs and preconceived notions, free markets not only work, but they created all the useful stuff we use every day while lifting the whole of humankind out of abject poverty. So, watch out for those religious zealots indeed.
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    But they don't exist and they never have because of all the things I pointed out. The premise of your argument is incorrect because they are not real. The free market is an impossible theoretical intellectual exercise and nothing more. Show me where all participants instantaneously knows the utility maximization function of all potential transactions and exercises individual maximization with friction free transfers based on perfect infinite information and we can more forward with your argument. Otherwise you're simply attributing unspecific generalities to a fiction.
    - 6y ago
nickpp 6y ago
Same in my country. First there was nothing available, then outrageous prices, then countless new producers entered the market and now you have your choice at accessible prices. Free markets at their finest. In my understanding only countries implementing price controls still have supply problems...
pmiller2 6y ago
If the "free market" is not designed for such an outcome, then what is the expected outcome when hospitals need to purchase PPE, and enough others are willing to pay more than the hospitals?

by barumi 6y ago

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> I live in a country where, when the demand for N95 masks started, had a few unrelated corporations quickly enter the market with their own product. I'm talking about companies ranging from office supplies to coffee makers. Hell, even beer producers quickly entered the hand sanitizer market. Consequently prices dropped drastically and not only is there no shortage of protective equipment but it's also affordable. Interesting, because IIRC there were global shortages of both hand sanitizer and N95 masks up to at least May. There were a lot of scammy products sold in between March and May, though. The problem with price gouging in large-scale emergencies is that companies just can't retool that quickly, especially when - as is the case with both hand sanitizer and N95 respirators - a complex supply chain is involved. That takes months, and through those months, you're dealing with extremely inefficient distribution of goods - from the humanitarian/life saving point of view. Free market does what it does. For instance, price the poorest out. A well-known example of the free market at work was in the US, when some people drove a van around towns and villages in their state and bought out all hand sanitizer to resell it on-line (with significant markup), thus depriving less wealthy communities of access to hand sanitizer.

baq 6y ago

If you believe the free market isn’t designed you’re in for a few bad experiences. Rules of the market are absolutely required to be consciously created, otherwise the free market becomes a monopoly. Remember that anarchy is just a prelude to despotism, both economically and politically.

kristopolous 6y ago

It also assumes everyone has the same power, which is false And that everyone has perfect infinite information, which is impossible. And that externalities are irrelevant, which is false And that all options are equally accessible, which doesn't exist. And that people act in perfectly rational objective ways, which isn't how humans behave. And that everyone instantaneously knows the utility maximization function of all potential transactions, which doesn't ever happen either. And that firms will always prefer competition over cooperation, which is the exact opposite of reality. And that any tricks such as cornering, price fixing, ramping, runs, pump and dumps, luring, spoofing, churning, pools, don't exist, which is also false. The foundation it's built on is a fundamental fiction. Conclusions based on it occasionally resembling reality are exceedingly rare and merely coincidental - it's like a form of astrology with more equations and charts. And the real clincher is the advocates are only interested in defending their ideological agenda like some kind of religious zealot. When anyone walks in thinking they already have the answer before hearing any of the questions, watch out - especially if it's the same exact answer every time.

nickpp 6y ago
And still, against all your strongly held beliefs and preconceived notions, free markets not only work, but they created all the useful stuff we use every day while lifting the whole of humankind out of abject poverty. So, watch out for those religious zealots indeed.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  But they don't exist and they never have because of all the things I pointed out. The premise of your argument is incorrect because they are not real. The free market is an impossible theoretical intellectual exercise and nothing more. Show me where all participants instantaneously knows the utility maximization function of all potential transactions and exercises individual maximization with friction free transfers based on perfect infinite information and we can more forward with your argument. Otherwise you're simply attributing unspecific generalities to a fiction.
  - 6y ago

nickpp 6y ago

Same in my country. First there was nothing available, then outrageous prices, then countless new producers entered the market and now you have your choice at accessible prices. Free markets at their finest. In my understanding only countries implementing price controls still have supply problems...

pmiller2 6y ago

If the "free market" is not designed for such an outcome, then what is the expected outcome when hospitals need to purchase PPE, and enough others are willing to pay more than the hospitals?